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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
My question was whether his feelings of dislike towards a group of people were based on the racial characteristics that group of people, or were his feelings based on the poor treatment he received from a group of people who happened to be of the same race?
I took his post as meaning the latter...But, as I have already posted, maybe I was in error there. Perhaps the OP can clarify. |
Both are bad. To hate an entire race because some members of said race treated you badly, is not an excuse. He wants to ban Koreans from America, simply because a few of them treated him badly. Actually my question should have been: Do you think this is acceptable? |
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royjones
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Location: post count: 512
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
| royjones wrote: |
| cant judge a nation on its "corrupt judges" the whole world knows who won the fight. |
You are probably right...but I don't want to hear another word about Ohno 'till Roy gets what he has coming to him.
Maybe the speedskater, Kim Dong-sun, could fight Jones...and the winner gets a gold medal? |
lol.. true enough, but I would rather see him kick tarvers ass.. grrr.. i hate that guy. lol. |
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Korea Newfie
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Newfoundland and Labrador
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Should racist thoughts be welcome? Suppose he had written the exact same post but replaced "Koreans" with "Jews" or "blacks"? |
Racist thoughts, perhaps not. But the OP was/is trying to work through some things, and you're not getting it. You attack the manifestation of the problem, but have no thoughts on getting through the anger at its base. Further, your attempt to equate his post with anti-semitism is pathetic at best. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Korea Newfie wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Should racist thoughts be welcome? Suppose he had written the exact same post but replaced "Koreans" with "Jews" or "blacks"? |
Racist thoughts, perhaps not. But the OP was/is trying to work through some things, and you're not getting it. You attack the manifestation of the problem, but have no thoughts on getting through the anger at its base. Further, your attempt to equate his post with anti-semitism is pathetic at best. |
Actually you don't get it. If it is not acceptable to say the same things about "Jews" then it should not be acceptable to say the same things about "Koreans". Next time engage brain before fingers. |
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maneatinghorse
Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:56 am Post subject: |
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My take on his post was that the experience at the Mayflower triggered his memories (still fresh) of being here. I think that his real beef is that Koreans ARE pretty racist and xenophobic themselves not that they flip their hair and talk on cell phones. Koreans make it quite clear that Korea is not for foreigners. I have been told so by an immigration official. The use of the word 'foreigner' by Koreans itself (instead of 'guest' or 'visitor') reinforces our status as outsiders. There are a lot of policies in Korea that are in place to make it hard for foreigners to fit in here. We are discriminated against here in many ways. I think the OP was thinking more along the lines of 'Why should we treat them so well?'. Why shouldn't we (or Americans actually) make it just as hard for them in our country? Why should we buy their stuff when they march in the street against ours? Some call it racism. Some call it an eye for an eye. Come on. It's a natural reaction. You go home from a place that has bars with signs that say "NO AMERICANS" to find a bunch of happy Koreans thouroughly enjoying themselves in your own country, with few if any of the hinderances you faced in theirs...When you point it out...YOU are the racist? I don't think so.
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Just a note... I am sure that most Koreans in English speaking countries would experience some levels of racism. An extreme example would be an article I have read some time ago... was about a Korean man gunned down in front of his church after the worship service by a white supremacist. Another example (not so extreme) would be stories of Gyopos working in law or accounting firms not being promoted to the partnership level to make way for a less qualified ��white�� employee. (Don��t know if that��s true though, but somewhat possible)
In reference to your ��eye for an eye�� comment... Is it justifiable for the brother or son of the Korean man who lost his life to pick up a gun and shoot a random white person in front of some church on the following Sunday? Is it a natural reaction of a grieving brother or son? Would that be acceptable or not?
How about a gyopo who did not make partnership level leaves the firm and sets up a highly successful practice. That gyopo refuses to promote any of his ��white�� employees despite their talent and commitment. Is that acceptable?
However, I do agree that Koreans do exclude foreigners more readily than other nationalities. We must remember that Korea is not a multicultural society, thus their willingness to exclude foreigners is understandable although not commendable. |
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lush72
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: I am Penalty Kick!
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| chiaa wrote: |
| A buddy of mine works for a rather large company here in Korea. The job he has is pretty high up and pays rather well. One night, he was out with some friends that brought some Koreans with them. One woman, when finding out that he had this job got very angry at him because he was taking a job away from a Korean. When he told me this I found it rather funny. How many Koreans take away university spots from American students in the states (not that I ever really cared but it makes me laugh how one-sided things can be)? He wishes he would of thought of that when confronted with her anger. |
I get this daily........................  |
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Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| chiaa wrote: |
| A buddy of mine works for a rather large company here in Korea. The job he has is pretty high up and pays rather well. One night, he was out with some friends that brought some Koreans with them. One woman, when finding out that he had this job got very angry at him because he was taking a job away from a Korean. When he told me this I found it rather funny. How many Koreans take away university spots from American students in the states (not that I ever really cared but it makes me laugh how one-sided things can be)? He wishes he would of thought of that when confronted with her anger. |
another way of looking at it might be that the foreigner is doing a korean a favor. 
not to lessen the op's unfortunate experience, but based on my husband's encounters as a "yellow man" in the states, there's no comparison; we are treated much better here. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Both are bad. To hate an entire race because some members of said race treated you badly, is not an excuse. He wants to ban Koreans from America, simply because a few of them treated him badly. Actually my question should have been: Do you think this is acceptable? |
Urban,
I should have got back sooner, but I was busy today and I wanted to think about my answer a little.
To answer your question (Is it acceptable?) straight up...No. I do not think it is acceptable.
One of the problems is that I do honestly try to lok at these things and remain unbiased and partial. When I start typing a response to someone like the OP...I start out unbiased and as I type I think of all the crap I have had to eat here and I begin to slide the other way. Well...at least I realize it and I am trying to control it...and I don't always succeed.
I also can not, in good conscience, criticize the Koreans for discriminating against GIs by banning them from bars (for the actions of a few) and at the same time support the OP for wanting to do the same. Discrimination is wrong...in both directions.
That being said...I think a lot of posters try to characterize what goes on here as "one director" or "a few Koreans"...and it runs deeper and wider than that. When an immigration official tells me "Korea is for Koreans", while wearing the uniform of, and representing, his government then it seems a little bit more serious than "one director" or "a few Koreans". It seems like government policy (seems like...not "IS"). When the Korean government says "Korea is for Koreans" is it racist to ask your congressman to consider this while reviewing visa requirements for Koreans entering the US? Since Korea only allows foreign females to become citizens (right away anyway) upon marrying a Korean man (but not the same for foreign men marrying Korean women, a racist/sexist policy in itself) is it racist to ask your own government to mirror that practice...Or ban visas to anyone from that country as a sign of protest. I bring this up not to cloud the issue or change the topic, but I really think the OP was upset about the culmulative feelings/prejudices/policies here in Korea. I don't think he was upset about one hakwon director or some Korean visiting the Mayflower. Once again, I have to state that I don't know exactly what he was thinking. Maybe he was just angry at the Koreans on the Mayflower. That would be wrong.
See...I am sliding again...I started out trying to be objective...I am not sure if the OP is a racist. I think that he probably is not. He did not, nor does he have the means to carry out, his stated wish. He may not even feel that way any more. But, I don't know him so I can't say.
My question is, why does Korea generate such feelings of hate from the people who visit? I don't have these feelings about any other country I have lived in or worked in. What is it about Korea or Koreans that makes them so unlikable at times? It is not limited to people living here. It is a feeling shared by people in countries that receive large numbers of Korean tourists. Maybe there is a problem here.
For the record...I know that racism exists in the west. That does not make it okay for it to happen against foreigners in Korea (and vice versa). If there is only a little racism against foreigners in Korea, but more against asians in the west...it is still not okay...in either place. To say it is worse somewhere else does not excuse it here. I do not feel better about getting kicked in the head once to find out someone got kicked in the head three times somewhere else. It would suck for both of us. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Both are bad. To hate an entire race because some members of said race treated you badly, is not an excuse. He wants to ban Koreans from America, simply because a few of them treated him badly. Actually my question should have been: Do you think this is acceptable? |
Urban,
I should have got back sooner, but I was busy today and I wanted to think about my answer a little.
To answer your question (Is it acceptable?) straight up...No. I do not think it is acceptable.
One of the problems is that I do honestly try to lok at these things and remain unbiased and partial. When I start typing a response to someone like the OP...I start out unbiased and as I type I think of all the crap I have had to eat here and I begin to slide the other way. Well...at least I realize it and I am trying to control it...and I don't always succeed.
I also can not, in good conscience, criticize the Koreans for discriminating against GIs by banning them from bars (for the actions of a few) and at the same time support the OP for wanting to do the same. Discrimination is wrong...in both directions.
That being said...I think a lot of posters try to characterize what goes on here as "one director" or "a few Koreans"...and it runs deeper and wider than that. When an immigration official tells me "Korea is for Koreans", while wearing the uniform of, and representing, his government then it seems a little bit more serious than "one director" or "a few Koreans". It seems like government policy (seems like...not "IS"). When the Korean government says "Korea is for Koreans" is it racist to ask your congressman to consider this while reviewing visa requirements for Koreans entering the US? Since Korea only allows foreign females to become citizens (right away anyway) upon marrying a Korean man (but not the same for foreign men marrying Korean women, a racist/sexist policy in itself) is it racist to ask your own government to mirror that practice...Or ban visas to anyone from that country as a sign of protest. I bring this up not to cloud the issue or change the topic, but I really think the OP was upset about the culmulative feelings/prejudices/policies here in Korea. I don't think he was upset about one hakwon director or some Korean visiting the Mayflower. Once again, I have to state that I don't know exactly what he was thinking. Maybe he was just angry at the Koreans on the Mayflower. That would be wrong.
See...I am sliding again...I started out trying to be objective...I am not sure if the OP is a racist. I think that he probably is not. He did not, nor does he have the means to carry out, his stated wish. He may not even feel that way any more. But, I don't know him so I can't say.
My question is, why does Korea generate such feelings of hate from the people who visit? I don't have these feelings about any other country I have lived in or worked in. What is it about Korea or Koreans that makes them so unlikable at times? It is not limited to people living here. It is a feeling shared by people in countries that receive large numbers of Korean tourists. Maybe there is a problem here.
For the record...I know that racism exists in the west. That does not make it okay for it to happen against foreigners in Korea (and vice versa). If there is only a little racism against foreigners in Korea, but more against asians in the west...it is still not okay...in either place. To say it is worse somewhere else does not excuse it here. I do not feel better about getting kicked in the head once to find out someone got kicked in the head three times somewhere else. It would suck for both of us. |
And I completely agree with this. The point I was trying to make though (which you seemed to agree with in this post) is that (to use your analogy) if Korean A kicks us in the head, it is not okay for us to kick Korean B in the head.
On a side note that sucks to hear what Immigation told you, but he may not have been representlng the government's offical point of view. Many foreigners have come on this board complaining that they got one statement from one immigration office and another opposing statement from another office. Heck, I know two foreigners that got opposing statements from the SAME immigration office, albeit from different officials. Immigration still seems to be quite patchwork here.
On balance though, I have to say your post I quoted above is probably the best post in this thread (and that includes mine). |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Urban,
I am glad you can understand where I am coming from. Some people handle it better here than others. I struggle with it sometimes, but try my best.
I know the immi guy was speaking for himself...It just bothered me more because he was wearing the uniform.
It has been an interesting discussion anyway...without name calling too. I am impressed. Maybe the hiatus mellowed people out. |
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maxxx_power
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Location: BWAHAHAHAHA! I'M FREE!!!!!!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| My question is, why does Korea generate such feelings of hate from the people who visit? I don't have these feelings about any other country I have lived in or worked in. What is it about Korea or Koreans that makes them so unlikable at times? It is not limited to people living here. It is a feeling shared by people in countries that receive large numbers of Korean tourists. Maybe there is a problem here. |
I don't know what it is but I definitely can relate to this statement. Of course it's my problem but I can honestly say that this place and it's people really get under my skin and I will never voluntarily return to Korea. |
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yangban
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The Great Green Pacific Northwest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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My feelings are not in line with the mainstream. But, they come as a result of a LOT of humilation, stress, and pain. Granted, they weren't all bad, but there were more than a few who were nasty, nasty, nasty. My feelings can be interepreted as racist, however, most racists are ignorant, self-serving, and blindly hateful. I am none of these. I don't hate Koreans, I am just disgusted by their arrogant, disrespectful behavior. I want these people to leave America, but I never said that all Koreans should be banned. My feelings are what they are, and, as guilty as I feel about them, they are there. They will eventually go away, but, I will never feel happy about some arrogant jerk bad-mouthing my country and my people and then coming here and treading all over it like it is his playground.
On another note, while hostility towards Koreans or any other ethnic group is never tolerated, I am appalled that anti-Americanism is. It is trendy to hate Americans and America-bash without social chagrin. How many of your European, Canadian, etc., friends have said their fill about those nasty Americans and have never been chastised for being racist? I have heard it! Some Argentinian woman went on about how rude Americans are, and some Canadian guy agreed with her. Then she said "Who do they think they are to call themselves American? We are all Americans (North and South Americans)." I was burning! Certainly, there are many more rude Americans than Koreans, because of our population. But there is a higher percentage of rude, racist and discriminatory Koreans and other nationalities than Americans. While there are many bigots in this country, most Americans don't care and don't go out of their way to hate another nationality. Many Americans don't hate Iraqis, Al-Qaeda or any other "enemy" out there.
The double standards are annoying. Hate America! But say something bad about Koreans and you should burn, you racist pig! I left Korea to get away from that stress, and there they were. I know they think they are better than we are, and I know they have no respect for American sites, based on the disrepectful and juvenile way they acted. No Chinese, Indian, Brazilian or any other group acted as non-chalantly, arrogantly as they did. They acted normally, that is, courteous, legitimately interested in the sites as opposed to treating it like a McDonald's. That's what really ticked me off.
By the way, I am a she, not a he.  |
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rok_the-boat
Joined: 24 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| You get used to Kroea after you have been here awhile. I remember - I went back home after a five year stint here and then came back. I had to change planes at Bangkok and went to the new terminal etc. As soon as the announcement ot board came out "bali bali iriwa" was everywhere. I realised I was already back. The plane ride back was rather 'boisterous' - kinda annoying, but nothing compared to a bunch of English rowdies coming back from Spain. |
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Korea Newfie
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Newfoundland and Labrador
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Korea Newfie wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Should racist thoughts be welcome? Suppose he had written the exact same post but replaced "Koreans" with "Jews" or "blacks"? |
Racist thoughts, perhaps not. But the OP was/is trying to work through some things, and you're not getting it. You attack the manifestation of the problem, but have no thoughts on getting through the anger at its base. Further, your attempt to equate his post with anti-semitism is pathetic at best. |
Actually you don't get it. If it is not acceptable to say the same things about "Jews" then it should not be acceptable to say the same things about "Koreans". Next time engage brain before fingers. |
I don't get it? Okay, let's try this again. The issue is the feelings, not the rantings. As I said (and you even QUOTED ), racists comments are never welcome. Bad treatment causes bad feelings. This is true for any group. You're attacking his feelings, with no constructive solution as to how to work through them. He can't help how he feels.
Perhaps engaging empathy before insults would be more appropriate advice? |
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sparkx
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: thekimchipot.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| chiaa wrote: |
| A buddy of mine works for a rather large company here in Korea. The job he has is pretty high up and pays rather well. One night, he was out with some friends that brought some Koreans with them. One woman, when finding out that he had this job got very angry at him because he was taking a job away from a Korea. When he told me this I found it rather funny. How many Koreans take away university spots from American students in the states (not that I ever really cared but it makes me laugh how one-sided things can be)? He wishes he would of thought of that when confronted with her anger. |
Your buddy sounds like sexy beast - probably equipped with a unit like a baby's arm in a boxing glove.
No doubt a visionary; a young Emilo Estevez I imagine. |
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