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What does it feel like to be a minority?
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dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject:

It really is pointless to compare the situation in Korea in regard to non-Koreans with most Western nations. This is because in Korea, non-Koreans are still only 1% or less of the total population. Plus, a goodly percentage of those are here only temporarily. At best, we are a novelty. The real test of Korean attitudes and Korean society will come when the proportion of of non-Koreans attains a "critical mass", whether that number is 5%, 10%, or greater and sufficient numbers of these people view themselves as immigrants to Korea and start producing larger numbers of first-generation non-Korean "Koreans".

waterbaby

Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Baking Gord a Cheescake pie

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject:

kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote:

Quote:

What facts are those?
How reliable are they?
What margin of error was there?

How did they measure these levels when spousal abuse is often undeclared?
How many have you polled?

Quantifying human behavior is a daunting task, yet you claim to have done so.

Quote:

It is estimated that one in four women will experience domestic violence at some time in their lives. Domestic Violence: a Health Care Issue. London: BMA, 1998.

Quote:

Korea 1992 - Random sample of entire country found 38% of wives report physical abuse in the last year

Plus, in a culture of shame such as this one, where domestic violence is only just starting to be seen as a crime, and where the police are routinely not very interested in following things up, we can imagine that abuse is highly under reported here. We know it is under reported everywhere, but it would be a very reasonable guess that is even more under reported here than in the west.

Hey KB - did you know that domestic violence is the leading killer of young women in the state of Victoria in Australia?

http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/15/1087244916265.html?oneclick=true

Quote:

Domestic violence is the single greatest risk factor associated with death, disease and disability for younger Victorian women, a new study has revealed.

http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/16/1087244976212.html

Quote:

Ms Nixon said that despite a recent increase in reports to police of domestic violence, the problem remained "incredibly under-reported". "We think that 80 per cent of family violence is in fact not reported to police, the courts, or that in many cases not to any other service provider."

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:10 pm Post subject:

Quote:

But the simple fact is in America we think of diversity as our strength, while in Korea they think of their homogeneity as their strength (one blood.)

I think this is an important and useful distinction. Korean racism, unlike the racism in most western countries, is generally linked to notions of blood. To take a personal example, my Canadian father was prejudiced against East Indians, but it usually took the form of "I wish those Sikhs wouldn't wear their knives out on the street" or "why can't they leave their political problems back in India"? He did not object to East Indians simply because they had non-white blood running through their veins, and in fact he was on fairly friendly terms with one or two assimilated East Indians. In my experience, most Canadian racism falls roughly into this "cultural", as opposed to "blood", category.

As for Korea, well: I am informed by recent high school graduates that notions of "one blood" are still taught as dogma is the school system. And I know for a fact that respectable Korean politicians have been known to tout racial solidarity in their books and speeches. One foreign policy bigwig, an adviser to the former military dictators, has written a book suggesting that Korea should expand its territory by encouraging ethnic Koreans in central Russia(who were sent their in the 1930s) to migrate east to Siberia, on the assumption that their Korean blood would trump cultural differences, making them feel right at home next door to the fatherland. Even Kim Dae Jung has spoken of the bond that supposedly exists between Koreans in Korea and Koreans who were adopted as infants by families in Sweden. And similar racist ideas seem to underly the fanciful notion that, in the event of re-unification, Koreans North and South would just join hands and sing Arrirang until the end of time.

So, yes, the IDEOLOGY behind Korean racism is rather akin to the ideology behind racism in the Deep South(with its "one drop rule") and Nazi Germany. HOWEVER, this does not mean that everyday life for foreigners in Korea is akin to everyday life for blacks and Jews in those nightmare jurisdictions. Why? For the simple reason that blood racism does not AUTOMATICALLY lead to a totalitarian dystopia. History has to intervene to make the theoretical the reality. Nazi Germany didn't happen simply because Germans were sitting around reading romantic poets who extolled racial purity and they said "hey, this is greta stuff, let's go burn down some Jewish stores". No, it happened because desperate economic and social conditions took hold which forced violent and irrational ideas to the forefront of the body politic. Had there been no Versailles, no hyper-inflation, no suitcases full of money required to buy a loaf of bread, no runaway unemployment in the 1930s, etc etc, German racism, even if widely supported, would likely be the generally quaint, if highly unattractive, oddity that Korean racism is today.

And non-blood prejudice, given the correct historical conditions, can lead to atrocities just as bad as the blood type. There's not much blood prejudice in Ulster(they're all Irish), but if I had a choice between being a Catholic(or Protestant) in the wrong section of Belfast or being a way-gook in Korea, I'm pretty sure which one I'd prefer.

crazylemongirl

Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:24 pm Post subject:

Gwangjuboy wrote:

I still don't understand this analogy. I am talking about a widespread hatred of inter racial relationships, yet you are talking being called a hooker because of the way you appear. Very unpleasant yes, but not a decent analogy to draw in this case. I am glad that you have thick skin though. Am I right in assuming that white on Asian racism receives heavy condemnation from yourself? What would your response be if I told you that Asians living in the UK should grow thick skin and deal with it? I reiterate my call for an unequivical condemnation of Asian to white racism.

Did you actually bother to read my post? The point of getting called a hooker has more to do with sexism than racism. If women is outside the box in any sort of way (eg. the skirt is shorter, her shirt has no sleeves, not korean) then there is a high probabilty that she will be called a hooker by some low life. As for the rest of the paragraphy let me referesh your memory.

I recently wrote:

But like I said learn to develop a thick skin and try and re-educate on a small level.

See there was a second part to that sentence! I didn't say merely develop a thick skin I said do something about it as well.

I eariler wrote:

I don't think that discrimination is cool whoever is doing it, whether they have a black, brown or white face and it needs to be challenged.

Quote:

I do. Every Korean I've met who has been to the West always remarks on how much more tolerant we are. A former colleague who went to the UK was shocked to see so many people in wheel chairs being pushed around by their families. She said such sites were rare in Korea. She also remarked on her surprise at seeing so many inter racial couples hand in hand. After my experience of living in the UK I can safely conclude that we are well ahead of Korea on the issue of acceptance of inter racial marriages. Indeed the biggest let down on this issue are Asians who live in the UK! My girlfriend could quite possibly get a bad comment in the UK. Who knows? I never claimed that racism was completely erradicated. I doubt it ever will be. But because the far right parties are in political oblivion I can safely say that such views do not constitute a remotely accurate sample of British opinion.

Your arguement that because their are interracial couples + the absence of the BNP= britian is better on race relations is a bit of of a red herring.

The reasons that people vote for particular parties are complex. Just because there is no far right party does not mean that there is no racism. It could also mean that people figure that other things are more important than racism, or the fact that the british political system is set up in a way to discourage voting outside of the major parties. But also by that analogy the fact there is an absence of a 'non-koreans get out of korea and don't touch our people' would make korea a less racist place!

As for inter-racial couples your going to get far more instances of it back home because there are more immigrants. The new world was built on immigration and the old world had a signficant amont of immigration from it's former colonies. On the surface we are more tolerant. Yet underneath I bet that there whole neighborhoods where you can't see a white face and whole places where you won't see a non-white face. That suggests that people aren't so happy with the idea of mixing yet.

eamo

Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:35 pm Post subject:

Quote:

And non-blood prejudice, given the correct historical conditions, can lead to atrocities just as bad as the blood type. There's not much blood prejudice in Ulster(they're all Irish), but if I had a choice between being a Catholic(or Protestant) in the wrong section of Belfast or being a way-gook in Korea, I'm pretty sure which one I'd prefer.

Me too... And I'm a 'Catholic' from Belfast!!

My theory is that the mild examples of racism we experience here are more to do with the dis-comfort and insecurity Koreans feel around westerners due to their lack of exposure to us. Not so much a pre-meditated hate system which all the people of Northern Ireland feel on a regular basis.

I never get the feeling from Koreans that they feel superior to me. In fact, sometimes it's the opposite!! Often I feel Koreans crave recognition as a proud and successful nation. They especially want this recognition from those in the 'developed' world.

However, in Northern Ireland, some people are taught from birth that their 'side' are morally, ethically and sometimes even genetically, superior to the other 'side'. I think this is where it can really be called rascism.

I agree with some previous posters that it does become a bit more sinister when a Western - Korean romance develops. The idea of 'One-Blood' can develop into all-out racism in those weak-minded enough to believe that racial purity actually matters at all.

kiwiboy_nz_99

Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:41 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Hey KB - did you know that domestic violence is the leading killer of young women in the state of Victoria in Australia?

http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/15/1087244916265.html?oneclick=true

Quote:
Domestic violence is the single greatest risk factor associated with death, disease and disability for younger Victorian women, a new study has revealed.

http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/16/1087244976212.html

Quote:
Ms Nixon said that despite a recent increase in reports to police of domestic violence, the problem remained "incredibly under-reported". "We think that 80 per cent of family violence is in fact not reported to police, the courts, or that in many cases not to any other service provider."

Those Victoria stats don't cancel out the Korean stat. They're both unfortunate. The two studies are not equivilant though. One say 38% of woman accross Korea report being domestically abused, the other says there seems to be a concerntration of yobbo's in Victoria, and we don't know how many women get abused but it's dangerous for thier health.

The second thing, of course it's under reported. And we can assume that in a shame based culture such as Korea, where the cops are far less likely to act, that it's even more under reported here.

Quote:

That's why this part of your post is off topic and not a good analogy. Your point is about sexism, but the OP is about being a minority. Being a woman is not being a minority. An oppressed group yes, but not a minority.

kiwiboy_nz_99

Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:50 pm Post subject:

Quote:

However, in Northern Ireland, some people are taught from birth that their 'side' are morally, ethically and sometimes even genetically, superior to the other 'side'. I think this is where it can really be called rascism.

Aren't we talking about religious rather than racial conflict in Ireland?

Let's not forget that racism does not have to involve hate or feelings of superiority. Any kind of distinguishing, bais, preferential treatment, seeing one group as alien, all this is under the umbrella of racism. A korean could be perfectly pleasant to your face, help you on the subway, smile and nod, but scratch the surface, and you're alien, plain and simple. And this will come out if you try to marry one of thier children.

eamo

Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:10 pm Post subject:

I think we're trying to distinguish between, a. Racism motivated by hate and feelings of superiorty and, b. Racism motivated by ignorance. Both are un-pleasant but ignorant racism is a little easier to forgive and live with. I think it's this kind of racism we get in Korea. A better title for this thread would be, "Do Koreans feel superior to foreigners?". I don't think they do. The comparisom to N.I. is not accurate but hate felt from another group is just as real whether it's religious or racist.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:10 pm Post subject:

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote:

Don't you just love it when apologists degrade their own profession? "All English teachers were losers back home ... except for me, of course, because I'm special."

Comparing the unselfconscious prejudice of many Koreans with the knowingly anti-liberal sentiments of Western racists is like comparing the innocent, vacant stare of a bunny with the drooling sneer of a rat.

I never said that quote that you attribute to me. Nice attempt at libel though. Shows desperation when people go to the trouble of making up "evidence" even though it is totally false.

As for your last sentence I do agree.

Gwangjuboy

Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:12 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Gwangjuboy wrote:

Paddycakes wrote:

Gwangju Boy wrote:

Quote:

I know what it's like to be the black man in 1950's Mississippi. And I don't like it one bit.

. If a black man was to stroll the streets of Mississippi in the 1950's then they would be greated in a similar way as I was when holding hands with my Korean girlfriend in the streets in Gwangju. She has been called a prostitute many times, and on a couple of occasions I was threatened by Korean men for being with her. (in one incident I was chased through downtown Gwangju by three men, and on another occasion a Korean men pulled up his car and instructed my Kg to get in because he thought it was inappropriate for her to be with me). Lets just be clear. Do you condone this?

If it is really this bad, why do you stay? Or is it as you state in a recent post just because "some" Korean men call your girlfriend names?

JUT SO EVERYBODY KNOWS, THE URBAN MYTH THINKS I SHOULD GO BACK HOME RATHER THAN CRITICISE RACIST KOREANS. Confused

Gwangjuboy

Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:17 pm Post subject:

chinook wrote:

first off, i think that in the cases of white women being called prostitutes just for being white and korean women being called prostitutes for dating white men is racist, but more importantly, sexist.

Secondly, while the UK may not vote in the BNP in any large numbers, certainly in the three years I lived there the papers reported increasing BNP support, such as their control of several local councils.
.

Why are you lying? The BNP hasn't controlled local councils. They have had local councillors elected but that's very different from actually controlling a council.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:18 pm Post subject:

Gwangjuboy wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Gwangjuboy wrote:

Paddycakes wrote:

Gwangju Boy wrote:

Quote:

I know what it's like to be the black man in 1950's Mississippi. And I don't like it one bit.

If it is really this bad, why do you stay? Or is it as you state in a recent post just because "some" Korean men call your girlfriend names?

JUT SO EVERYBODY KNOWS, THE URBAN MYTH THINKS I SHOULD GO BACK HOME RATHER THAN CRITICISE RACIST KOREANS. Confused

So now that you have been caught in a contradiction you resort to writing silly messages? Let's review. First you claim that you are treated like a black in the Deep South in the 50's. Since they were treated so bad, I asked why you stayed and put up with said treatment.

Then you said "Are you suggesting that I should leave because some Koreans have labeled my girlfriend a *beep* for being with me?"

Big difference between the two. As far as going back home, yes. Rather then spread your racist nonsense here, do it there. See how far it gets you.

Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

Gwangjuboy

Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Just curious. I am white and defending Koreans, and you ask if I am racist? Even for you that's a pretty foolish question. Let me ask you something. Who is more likely to be considered a racist? Someone who is white and defends Koreans, or someone who is white and degrades Koreans?

No, you are attempting to deflect attention away from those Koreans who have labeled my Korean girlfriend a prostitute for being with a white man. So I ask you the same question. Are you a racist? It's just that you seem to have little problem with racism, so I rightly suggested that you might share those leanings.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:23 pm Post subject:

Gwangjuboy wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

I already answered the question. As for MY question I think, judging by your posts that we can take the answer for "Yes"

Gwangjuboy

Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:28 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

So now that you have been caught in a contradiction you resort to writing silly messages? Let's review. First you claim that you are treated like a black in the Deep South in the 50's.

What conbradiction? Is it possible that a white woman with a black woman would have been labeled a *beep* by racist Mississippians in the 1950's?
That's what I am suggesting. You seem to be the only one who continues to back this lost cause.

Quote:

Since they were treated so bad, I asked why you stayed and put up with said treatment.

And yep folks, more of the same "put up with racism or go home" BS.

Quote:

Big difference between the two. As far as going back home, yes. Rather then spread your racist nonsense here, do it there. See how far it gets you.

So now you choose to label me a racist for pointing out Asian to white racism. Please refer our audience to a racist statement I have made. Quick sharp! Get to work.

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