|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:12 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| shortskirt_longjacket wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| You guys should get a room together. |
yeah, no *beep*. you boys wanna take this outside, please?
i'm dissappointed that an otherwise scintillating thread has been clogged up by these two slagging each other. here's a tip for new readers of this thread: just skip pages, like, 4 to 8 and you should be fine.
in relation to the actual post: i find it interesting that we keep quibbling over the definition of 'minority' and, to a lesser extent, 'racism' but no one but one poster (i think...correct me if i'm wrong) has actually hinted at getting a good working definition of "nazi-esque" thinking for this post. such an inflammatory label and yet no one (G-boy and TheUrbanMyth, specifically) cares about understanding what one actually means when one uses "nazi" as an adjective for anything.
i don't think the korean pure-blood mentality comes from a desire to create a physically/intellectually superior race that will spread its inherrent domination all over the world. that sort of thing is what's conjured up in [/i]my[i] mind when i hear the word 'nazi.' maybe by insisting on 'pure blood', koreans want to cling to their cultural identity in one of the most basic ways. i think it's a piss-poor way to do it (they should make their own cultural identity by not trying so damn hard to be like western countries w/r/t fashion, music, cinema, commercialism, etc.), but i don't think you can put their motivations on par with the world-domination-seeking nazis. maybe they're a little irked that the united states is still holding their hand to go to the toilet (i'm speaking about the heavy military presence here) and they wanna say, "hey, we don't need you...we're having a bang-up time being koreans without you westerners horning in on our deal." i'm in no way excusing their pure-blood mentality...i'm just thinking maybe there's a little bit of backlash involved in their motivation. they've had their feelings hurt by us (i'm trivializing, i realize, but i'm trying to illustrate a point, so bear with me) and it makes sense that they'd be a bit put off by further "threats" to their "race" by westerners.
let me put this in all caps so i'm not lambasted by posters who don't read carefully enough: THIS IS NO EXCUSE FOR RACISM. RACISM IS BAD IN ANY FORM. THAT SAID, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND RACISM IN TERMS OF ITS MOTIVATIONS. and i think it's a whole lot more interesting to talk about that instead of why or how it's bad. it's pretty obvious that racism is bad; the effects of racism are pretty obvious as well. aren't you the least bit curious as to why other human beings (who are more like oneself than one is capable of understanding) treat each other so badly? it's not just because they're jackasses...it comes from somewhere. |
Sorry Mr/Ms? shortskirt. This will be my last post responding to Mr. Gwangjuboy in this thread. Kind of got sidetracked. So where do you think racism comes from? I believe it comes from a belief in the superiority of one's own race. This then would make one tend to regard the feelings and ideas of those of another race less worthy of respect. That's why they can "treat each other so badly". If you are not of the same race, and are seen as something less, it's a short step for that something less to become 'sub-human'. Still it doesn't allow for the ability to treat other beings of the SAME race the same way as the perceived 'sub-humans.' |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Homer
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is off the OP track.
This about minorities and how it feels to be part of such a group.
Many excellent points were made here.
1- Whites in Korea are a visible minority
2- They are however a minority that gets just about as many benefits (if not more) as negative things.
3- You cannot honestly compare a white person's life in Korea to that of any truly oppressed minority around the world. The comparison with Blacks in the South of the 50's is particularily innaporpriate here.
So, living in Korea can give you an idea of what it is to stand out because you are different, it can even give you a small idea of what racism can feel like but it does not mean you can compare yourself to blacks of the 50's, Turks in Germany or even Philipinos in Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shortskirt_longjacket
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Location: fitz and ernie are my raison d'etre
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Sorry Mr/Ms? shortskirt. This will be my last post responding to Mr. Gwangjuboy in this thread. Kind of got sidetracked. So where do you think racism comes from? I believe it comes from a belief in the superiority of one's own race. This then would make one tend to regard the feelings and ideas of those of another race less worthy of respect. That's why they can "treat each other so badly". If you are not of the same race, and are seen as something less, it's a short step for that something less to become 'sub-human'. Still it doesn't allow for the ability to treat other beings of the SAME race the same way as the perceived 'sub-humans.' |
i think belief in the superiority of one's race is one motivation. i also think that one race getting shat on by another could be a pretty strong factor, too. fear, ignorance, feelings of superiority, religion, resentment for past wrongs, etc. are all reasons for racism as well.
it's too bad that the human ability to put things in groups for functional purposes crosses over into our feelings about people. it's very helpful for us to recognize a pattern and live our lives based on that (example: don't eat white berries in the woods because people who have eaten white berries before have died), but it's a deplorable way of approaching absolutely unique people. even if they all seem the same.
oh, and it's ms. longjacket if it's really important for you to know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| shortskirt_longjacket wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| You guys should get a room together. |
yeah, no *beep*. you boys wanna take this outside, please?
i'm dissappointed that an otherwise scintillating thread has been clogged up by these two slagging each other. here's a tip for new readers of this thread: just skip pages, like, 4 to 8 and you should be fine. |
What an arrogant self centered fool. How dare you seek to dominate this board. I'll post here for as long as the freedoms in place allow me to do so. If you don't like it then don't read it. The mods haven't seen fit to lift pages 4-8 and create a new thread so as far as I am concerned it's all relevant. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Intellectual lightweight? That is funny coming from a person who has never met the "vast majority" of Koreans, and yet feels comfortable labeling them nazi-esque. Did you meet this "vast majority" personally and was their English good enough so they were able to inform you that they were against inter-racial dating? |
This is what I said,
"Whether we like it or not, Korean girls who date foreigners are considered slags or outcasts by the vast majority of this nation's people. It's Nazi esque, and it's an extremely common view amoungst this land's people."
You have constantly lied and twisted my words. I haven't labeled Koreans Nazi esque, but rather the objection to interracial relationships as Nazi esque. I also commented that objections to interracial relationships are extremely common in Korea. I have formed my opinion based on the countless negative comments that I received in the streets, and the disgusting looks directed at me should I hold hands with my girlfriend in public. I have also arrived at this conclusion after candid conversations with my Korean friends.
| Quote: |
I personally know ten interracial couples. Their parents, families and friends approve. Other teachers on the board have reported that they were also well-treated by their girlfriend's family. There are many tolerant Koreans.
|
Great. I don't think I ever claimed that there aren't any tolerant Koreans. Did I?
| Quote: |
| Now you compared yourself to a "black" man living in the Deep South in the 50's. Not only is this a silly comparision as you get better paid, and more personal freedom, but you trivialize and degrade those very people who had to fight for basic freedoms. This comparision does not hold up. If a black man had walked down the streets of these states, holding a white woman's hand he would likely be given a severe beating if not lynched. |
You continue to back this losing horse then? I said that I know what it's like to be a black man in Mississippi to the extent that my girlfriend has been called dreadful names because she was involved in an interracial relationship. Not all blacks were lynched for it you know. Why? Are you suggesting that all white Mississippians participated in lynching? Has this sunk in yet?
| Quote: |
| We on the other hand can walk down the streets with at most a hostile glance or comment. There are many teachers here with Korean girlfriends. Some have encountered these glances and comments, and some have never had any trouble. |
Great. I've had trouble for being in a relationship with a Korean girl from racist Koreans. I've shared it with the board and you got all excited about it.
| Quote: |
| At first you claimed your situation was like that of a black man in the Deep South in the 50's. Now this situation was quite terrible. Naturally I questioned why you would stay in such a situation. You then changed gears and said "Are you suggesting that I should leave because some Koreans have labled my girlfriend a *beep* for being with me?" |
No. You are the only poster who has pursued this to such an extent. I think I have clarified my analogy with Mississippi above. But the question has remained unanswered. Now I have clarified my analogy are you still willing to suggest that I should leave Korea if I don't like the racism I have encountered here?
| Quote: |
| Tell you what. You withdraw the "vast majority" remark and I will withdraw the racist remark. As the one prompted the other, I think that is a fair exchange. |
I won't withdraw the remark that the vast majority of the people in this country look down on interracial relationships. Can you honestly say that most Korean parents would have no problem with their daughter marrying a black or white man? I still demand that you take back your claim that I am a racist until you post evidence which suggests that I am. So far you have failed to do so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
the other hand wrote:
Gwangjuboy wrote:
Quote:
Being opposed to inter racial marriage is Nazi esque. How could you possibly deny it? Indeed, almost all aspects of Nazi policy was racially motivated. Can you remember the Nuremburg laws during the 1930s. An intergral part of those laws was the prohibition of inter racial marriage.
The fact that the Nazis were opposed to inter-racial marriages does not make ALL opposition to inter-racial marriages nazi-esque. It depends on whether or not the bigot in question opposes inter-racial marriage for the same reason that the Nazis did, ie. maintaining blood purity. My mother used to tsk-tsk when she saw interracial couples walking down the street because, according to her, it is psychologically difficult for children to be raised in an inter-racial household, what with different values, stigmatization, etc etc. Now I think that's pretty lame, and was probably a bit of a rationalization for her own CULTURAL discomfort with visible minorities. But I'm pretty sure that she didn't subscribe to Nazi-style racial ideologies, and in fact probably had only the faintest idea about what those ideologies involved.
I am not uncomfortable with labeling opposition to inter racial marriage as "Nazi esque". "Cultural discomfort" sounds like a great excuse for closet racists. Those Koreans who labeled my girlfriend a prostitute for being with a white man can certainly be accused of wanting to preserve Korean blood purity.
|
I didn't intend to deny that "cultural discomfort"(and that includes my mother's) can be a form of racism. My point is that not ALL forms of racism are nazi-esque. The Nazis practiced a specific style of racism, based on blood. Of course, other styles of racism can and do exist. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Um...Wow.
I read this whole thread and am quite amazed what direction it went in. But always expect the unexpected at Dave's 
To somewhat get back on track, I will just comment on some things I noticed while reading this thread.
As already mentioned, comparing Blacks in the 50s to the expat experience is insulting to the experience of Blacks living in those times. I wanted to to discuss more modern experiences for minorities for a very simple reason: most of us, no matter how long we (well..not me) are in Korea, have some perspective on race relations within their own country within the last 5, 10, 15, or 20 years.
From my brief experience, Korea reminds me of the modern U.S. in the sense they (Koreans) may not necessarily be rude or make racist comments to your face, but they may make it behind your back. That is more the experience for minorities (at least in the U.S.) in my opinion. People are nice to your face but eventually you hear about a "friend" calling you a N***** behind your back.
But as other people have mentioned, there are benefits that expats get that even Koreans don't get. Perhaps this doesn't fit the typical minority experience in your homeland but that is sort of the point. The experiences are not 100% the same but some experiences (I believe) can be relate to the minority experience.
As far as inter racial relationships: I have been called a "White man's w h o r e" by a random Black person in NYC for being with my White boyfriend. I get stared at by Blacks and Whites for being with a White guy. Staring is not a crime but it does make you wonder what these people are seeing. Are they disgusted? shocked? scared? bewildered? Who knows...It isn't fair and I would agree with CLG on this one: get a tough skin and educate people, because there isn't much more you can personally do beyond that.
Also, being called a *beep* or a prostitute because of your race is racism in my opinion. Being called a *beep* or a *beep* because of the race of your boyfriend is also racism. I'm puzzled as to why this issue had to be hashed out to such a degree in this thread.
I also think that people should understand that more insidious forms of racism are a problem. I don't think that the west has quite reached the point of moving away from underhanded forms of racism.
As far as domestic violence/ abuse: I'm just going to quote something I wrote in another thread. I would hope it is noticed, that abuse is prevalent in a number of countries and figuring out who does it more solves nothing; the real issue to find a way to stop it from happening in the first place
| Quote: |
New Zealand
Men assaulting their women partners comprise between 86% and 98% of family violence-related arrests. Recent NZ studies found that 35% of men reported physically assaulting their partners, and 33% of women reported physical or sexual abuse from their male partner.
In a NZ Department of Justice study, one in five kiwi men admitted assaulting their partners in the last year.
http://www.dvc.org.nz/stats.htm
United States
Every 9 seconds a women is beaten in the United States.
Between 3 and 4 million women are battered each year.
85-95% of all domestic violence victims are female.
Women age 20 - 34 endure the highest rates of domestic violence.
Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women.
Women are more likely to be attacked by someone they know rather than by a stranger.
Every 9 seconds a women is beaten in the United States.
http://www.aidv-usa.com/Statistics.htm
The United Kingdom and Europe
On average, in the United Kingdom:
Everyday one woman is killed every day
A woman is beaten 37 times before reporting to the police
there are 600 incidents of domestic violence every minute
in 90% of DV crimes, children are in the room at the time
In Europe:
98% of victims of domestic violence are women and that one in five has been subject to violence by her husband or partner on at least one occasion
Only about one in 20 incidents of domestic violence are reported to the police, even though domestic violence is considered to be a crime that can be punished by law
http://www.space.net.au/~wrgofwa/statistical.html
And to be fair I include this link: http://www.batteredmen.com/
This site has data, statistics, stories, and analysis about domestic violence against men. Included are facts such as 44% of DV victims (in Canada) are men and that British men are as likely to be victims of domestic violence as their female counterparts.
|
So, to get back on track:
What does it feel like to be visibly different in Korea? Do you feel empathy with the issues that face minorities in your respective nations? (Since it has received so much attention in this thread) What have your inter racial dating experiences been like in koreea? Do you think inter racial relationships will become more acceptable in Korean society (i.e. not calling Korean women whores for dating a Westerner)?
Fascinating observations so far, keep them coming!
AlyAllen |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shortskirt_longjacket
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Location: fitz and ernie are my raison d'etre
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| shortskirt_longjacket wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| You guys should get a room together. |
yeah, no *beep*. you boys wanna take this outside, please?
i'm dissappointed that an otherwise scintillating thread has been clogged up by these two slagging each other. here's a tip for new readers of this thread: just skip pages, like, 4 to 8 and you should be fine. |
What an arrogant self centered fool. How dare you seek to dominate this board. I'll post here for as long as the freedoms in place allow me to do so. If you don't like it then don't read it. The mods haven't seen fit to lift pages 4-8 and create a new thread so as far as I am concerned it's all relevant. |
YES. how dare i dominate this thread with my two whole posts (as opposed to your...what?....ten posts?) on this topic! you have the freedom to post...no one is arguing that. what i am arguing is the pertinence of your continued posts that are clearly motivated by a personal rage that you feel. give it a friggin rest. talk about the issue in an impersonal, unimpassioned manner, if you can. if you can't...get counselling and sort out your issues. THEN step outside of your own (infuriated) position and think about why koreans might be saying this to you. i'm not saying that racist remarks are your fault, or that you deserve them, or that they are justified.
let me make myself clear.
this is an open forum and people are less interested in hearing about your personal rage than they are about hearing what people's thoughts are on the subject. you can make an strong and emotion-filled post about how offended you are about some drunk-ass korean dudes calling your girlfriend a prostitute, but don't shove it down our throats or force us to 'admit' that koreans are nazis. that's all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shortskirt_longjacket
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Location: fitz and ernie are my raison d'etre
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alyallen wrote: |
So, to get back on track:
What does it feel like to be visibly different in Korea? |
it sucks. but i don't think about it in terms of who i am as a person or how enjoyable my life is for longer than fifteen seconds after it happens. it's their problem.
| Alyallen wrote: |
Do you feel empathy with the issues that face minorities in your respective nations? |
empathy? no. i don't have it like blacks have it (or have had it) in the united states. sympathy? tremendous amounts. but i had that before. being "persecuted" or "discriminated against" in real life isn't much different than it's been described to me in U.S. history classes. i cried over some of the stuff that fredrick douglass endured (literally cried) and countless other blacks went through during slavery and after. this was before i moved to korea. now that i'm here and encountering people who ask automatically if i'm from russia...well, i still don't feel like a black person who is getting beaten by a white massah. but i do have sympathy for genuinely oppressed minorities. i'm not oppressed here....just occasionally people mistake me for something i'm not. but i haven't been beaten in a back alley because of my race and i haven't gone to jail because of my race and i haven't been denyed a job because of my race and i haven't been accused of a crime because of my race so....NO, my experience isn't anywhere near the same as a minority back in the good ol' U.S. of A. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
little mixed girl
Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: shin hyesung's bed~
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ehh...i'm basically a minority where ever i go.
when i was in korea, i got a few stares. but it was something i was prepared for. actually i expect the worst, and if it doesn't turn out like that then i'm happy.
as for interracial relationships, i can say that america isn't exactly practicing what it preaches. while you won't see TV shows about hating interracial dating, people still do talk in private about it.
and mixed couples get sh*t from the members of their own communities.
it's either 'white worship' or 'colonial mentality' or 'self-hate' that ppl throw out to talk about interracial relationships. and 'sellout' is also extremely popular.
and about saying 'hello' to a person in a different language in america.
well, it does happen. i was walking down the street on time & this guy was like 'hola' while walking past me.
not everyone does it, but there are people out there that do do those things...
but yeah. i wasn't on the look out for people who could potentially be staring at me. while my korean isn't great, i didn't hear any derogitory comments aimed at me.
i'd say the worst was after being in a 'mall' in itaewon, my friend told me the lady who was trying to sell me stuff said "foreigners are weird".  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alyallen wrote: |
So, to get back on track:
What does it feel like to be visibly different in Korea? Do you feel empathy with the issues that face minorities in your respective nations? (Since it has received so much attention in this thread) What have your inter racial dating experiences been like in koreea? Do you think inter racial relationships will become more acceptable in Korean society (i.e. not calling Korean women whores for dating a Westerner)?
Fascinating observations so far, keep them coming!
AlyAllen |
I think the foreign experience here might be a little more like a tall athleticl looking black man would get if he went to an isolated predominantly white area. Half would assume he's a star athlete, and treat him accordingly, some would be neutral and a vocal minority would give him trouble.
I've dated a couple of Korean men while I've been here, and my adult students both male and female seemed to really like the idea. I know of one Korean guy that if only he weren't married, I'd still be chasing. On the flip side of things though- while discussing interracial dating with another group of students, I mentioned that I had dated a black guy and that my parents weren't exactly jumping for joy. ( I come from a pretty homogenous kinda place too) Anyway, I got gasps of horror, and a couple of students refused to come to class ever again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| peppermint wrote: |
| - while discussing interracial dating with another group of students, I mentioned that I had dated a black guy and that my parents weren't exactly jumping for joy. ( I come from a pretty homogenous kinda place too) Anyway, I got gasps of horror, and a couple of students refused to come to class ever again. |
that says a great deal.
i take any opportunity given to counter racial stereotyping amongst my students, especially as an American, relating to American blacks.
question for Alyallen:
have you noticed/experienced variations of racial prejudice in NYC, say between blacks and east Asians?
Personal friends aside, when my (Korean) husband lived in NY and then NJ, he noticed a marked difference between how African Americans vs. Africans related to him.
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alyallen wrote: |
Also, being called a *beep* or a prostitute because of your race is racism in my opinion. Being called a *beep* or a *beep* because of the race of your boyfriend is also racism. I'm puzzled as to why this issue had to be hashed out to such a degree in this thread.
I also think that people should understand that more insidious forms of racism are a problem. I don't think that the west has quite reached the point of moving away from underhanded forms of racism.
|
There are two reasons that I think that I think that this situation has more to do with sexism than racism is because first it's directed against the women in the situation. I do find it interesting that the common thread running through both situations is that woman is the one with who the abuse is directed at, not the guy.
Secondly choice of words. For me being called a hooker is really nasty thing it says that I'm a piece of property. The fact that they are calling them this rather than a 'blood traitor' or the liike suggests that the person calling a women that does view them as pieces of meat rather than intelligent people capable of making their own decisions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harin
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: Garden of Eden
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is one of my favorite quotes from the book, interpreter;
"Being bilingual, being multicultural should have brought two worlds into one heart, and yet for Suzy, it meant a persistant hollowness. It seems that she needed to love one culture to be able to love the other."
I always feel the "constant inharmony between oil and water."  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
On top of all that has been said, which I did not read all of, I think I have not received much racist treatment in Korea. Just a bunch of looks and normal ignorance and curiosity about the world that happens among homogenous and unworldly, untravelled people I suppose.
Frustrating for me. But would be equally or more frustrating for them to go to where I'm from and spend a while, for sure!
In this world, Koreans are a bigger minority than we are! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
