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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
So, to say that "Copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes" is in fact not true, while advising someone that they probably don't have to be worried about being nailed for copyright violation due to 'fair use' precedents is? Does that sound like a reasonable summation? |
It basically comes down to intent. The copying of a book for sheet music with a for-profit reason, then it's not education even if it's at a school.
Doing things on impulse is fine. Let's say my class says "we want to study a science fiction book". then it's fine for me to whip out my "Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and start copying what we'll read in class. As well, we can openly discuss the characters, new words, and other trademarked items with impunity (despite what the Church of Scientology has claimed).
Essentially, is it an educational use or a profit use. If it was known six months in advance that I planned to copy fifty pages of a book and my course relied on those pages heavily, then it's just me being cheap and thus a copyright violation.
My suddenly realizing that I'm two copies short so I copy the book until the new book arrives is not. There is no financial harm.
Or another judge would be whether or not you would have used the product if had to pay for it. Let's say I want to do a maze in my class. Sure, I could take twenty minutes and draw up a maze to copy. But if I have a book in front of me with a maze in it, I can copy it for the class as there was no financial loss to the publisher since I wouldn't have bought the book anyway if it had not been there.
Do you have specific example you would like to discuss?
| Quote: |
Obviously we're not discussing Korea here
[anyone remember when the govt. taskforce tried to shutdown any computers in govt. offices and universities that they found to be running unlicenced software? That was quite a laugh],
but are the 'fair use' and 'copyright' laws quoted international, or do they pertain specifically to the Canada and/or the US?
Inquiring minds want to know. |
The WTO has a set of guidelines as to minimum standards expected for copyright laws in member countries. Canada and the US are pretty much the minimum expected, while the UK has said copyrights extend for two hundred years and a trademark owner can control the import and distribution of products within their territory. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Gord: I've provided several links to sites that indicate your statement "Copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes" is false, which you didn't like because they debunk your claims.
Limited and very restricted copying is allowed under "fair use". By the way, your assertion that the test material exemption would cover in-class material because you might use it on a test someday seems to have disappeared from your post. Have you rethought that? Hope so. It made your argument look even sillier.
I'd like you to show me a link or two to credible sources that EXPLICITLY say "Copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes". No exceptions, no qualifiers. After all, your statement had neither. Certainly references to such a sweeping legal principle should be easy to find.
Say I'm teaching in Canada and find a textbook I want to use for one of my classes. I have ten students. It has 80-100 pages - think Side By Side. I make ten copies at the local print shop. I give the students these copies. I say I've just broken the law. Are you maintaining that I'm not, because in your view "copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes"?
Lawyertood: Though you're not a copyright guy, what's your legal opinion - is it true that "copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes"? |
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Dan
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Sunny Glendale, CA
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Gord vs The Lemon. the fate of the human world rests in their hands. |
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lawyertood
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul, Incheon and the World--working undercover for the MOJ
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Bulsajo said
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| So, to say that "Copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes" is in fact not true, while advising someone that they probably don't have to be worried about being nailed for copyright violation due to 'fair use' precedents is? |
I think it could best be said that the laws are not suspended but that in some cases--those determined to be "fair use" of the material--it is not copyright infringement. Even if you were to infringe on the copyright by copying material I don't think it would be worth the cost and time to sue you for damages unless there was a significant loss suffered by the author. Us lawyers aren't cheap.
Gord said
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| Doing things on impulse is fine. Let's say my class says "we want to study a science fiction book". then it's fine for me to whip out my "Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and start copying what we'll read in class. |
Here I would beg to differ. According to case law in the U.S., works of fiction tend to be more protected by copyright than works of non-fiction under Title 17 U.S. Code Sec. 107 (2). In other words, courts are more inclined to call the use of fact-based writings "fair use" than fictionalized writings. This has to do with the importance of giving the public information and news.
It would also seem to be more of an infringement if you copied most, if not all of the book for your students under Title 17 U.S. Code Sec. 107 (3), and it definitely would fail factor (4) as the book is commercially available and thus the market for the book is affected to the extent your students do not have to purchase the book.
If, however, you copied the first chapter for your students while waiting for the books to arrive at the school bookstore, I don't think it would be a violation. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Do you have specific example you would like to discuss? |
Nope, just trying to make sense of it all- Lemon and Gord are both persuasive, and I'm too lazy to follow all the links. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2003 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Gord: I've provided several links to sites that indicate your statement "Copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes" is false, which you didn't like because they debunk your claims. |
Revisionist history. You linked to sites that listed guidelines that either:
1 - are to ensure school staff and students stay far away from the line of copyright infringement to avoid even appearing as a blip on the legal radar as lawyers cost lots of money should the school fall into the legal crosshairs of an overzealous copyright protector.
2 - Are views of copyright ownes and how they want the world to be.
After I take time out of my day to explain in great detail in simple terms how the law works and these links not only contract each other, themselves, and the law itself, then follow it up with what the law really says, you pull this stunt in the hopes no one has read what I said because of the length involved.
I expected more from you given that we're supposed to be teachers.
| Quote: |
| Limited and very restricted copying is allowed under "fair use". By the way, your assertion that the test material exemption would cover in-class material because you might use it on a test someday seems to have disappeared from your post. Have you rethought that? Hope so. It made your argument look even sillier. |
What?
Because I don't retype the legal standing of an out of context scenario you brought up simply to shift the conversation away the original topic of discussion means I have abandoned the position?
What next, I didn't retype all my posts into this posting, thus I must have abandoned everything I typed before?
| Quote: |
| I'd like you to show me a link or two to credible sources that EXPLICITLY say "Copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes". No exceptions, no qualifiers. After all, your statement had neither. Certainly references to such a sweeping legal principle should be easy to find. |
Just so you know, I can't think of even a single law that is as absolute as you want me to find for this specific condition you've outlined. "The speed limit is 100! Unless the weather is bad, you're a poor driver, or your vehicle is need of maintenance. But wait, you can go faster in medical or communication emergencies. THE LAW ISN'T 100 AT ALL!"
Murder is murder! Unless it's self-defense. Or unless you're a doctor in a medical scenario. Or an act of war. Or a government agent engaging in the punishment of a criminal convicted of death. Even that's not absolute. You are demanding what doesn't exist anywhere.
Get on the fucking context train. The original question was about kids books with pictures. Can she copy them for class use? Yes, yes she can. Be it she wants them to match up colouring in the pictures with words, thus creating a consumable product of which the original was not intended for. Or so each child can follow along as she reads aloud. Or because the colouring was hard to read. Or because the book is no longer commercially available. Or blah blah blah blah. She would have to go out of her way to end up breaking the law.
There's a big difference between copying an entire book to save $1000 and any of the plethora of reasons that would permit the said copying.
| Quote: |
| Say I'm teaching in Canada and find a textbook I want to use for one of my classes. I have ten students. It has 80-100 pages - think Side By Side. I make ten copies at the local print shop. I give the students these copies. I say I've just broken the law. Are you maintaining that I'm not, because in your view "copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes"? |
That's piracy because you're contracting an outside source to engage in an act of copyright violation for momentary compensation.
Though for this exercise we'll pretend that it's you copying the book at a copy machine. Maybe a nice fancy one with colour and automatic stapling.
Copying a textbook is different copying a children's storybook, much like the speed limit example. What exactly is the reasoning for not buying the book, and other context issues should be considered? From that we can discuss legallity. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 12:30 am Post subject: |
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My question to Gord:
| Quote: |
Say I'm teaching in Canada and find a textbook I want to use for one of my classes. I have ten students. It has 80-100 pages - think Side By Side. I make ten copies at the local print shop. I give the students these copies. I say I've just broken the law. Are you maintaining that I'm not, because in your view "copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes"? |
Gord, Attorney-At-Law and Video Game Store Boy:
| Quote: |
That's piracy because you're contracting an outside source to engage in an act of copyright violation for momentary compensation. |
I'll assume you meant "monetary" there.
SuperGord continues:
| Quote: |
Though for this exercise we'll pretend that it's you copying the book at a copy machine. Maybe a nice fancy one with colour and automatic stapling.
Copying a textbook is different copying a children's storybook, much like the speed limit example. What exactly is the reasoning for not buying the book, and other context issues should be considered? From that we can discuss legallity. |
Reasoning? Discuss? In your black-and-white statement, "copyright laws are suspended for Educational purposes", there was nothing about "reasoning" and asking why the copier's not purchasing copies of the protected work. Gord's Law was missing a few stanzas.
Now, according to you, copyright laws are NOT "suspended for educational purposes". You're finally wanting to examine context. My context was the copying of protected material for educational purposes. You now acknowledge that certain parameters must be satisfied in order for the fair use exception to come into play, should an educator wish to fire up the photocopier and run off protected work.
And these parameters (length of the material photocopied, economic impact) would, in the example I gave, render the photocopying of a class set of textbooks illegal.
And you now admit you can't quote documents on the net to support your claim because, as you say, they don't exist. If I misunderstood what you said, I'm again inviting you to show me by providing a link that says educational purposes suspend copyright law. Until you do, we'll consider this settled.
______________________
By the way- the link I provided that you called "the Textbook industry site", was in fact from the Council of Ministers of Education, an association of the 10 provincial Education ministers. I know you knew that. Good try tho.
http://www.cmec.ca/else/copyright/matters/indexe.stm
______________________
Oh - thanks Lawyertood for weighing in. You're owed a beer for your opinion at the next meet.
(Gord's paying.) |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Copyright laws are suspended when a copyrighted material is to be used in an educational setting. |
For some reason, this statement looks like it was part of an earlier thread somewhere. Gord, where you talking about Canada, the USA, or South Korea here? As well, I think the word "suspend" is perhaps misleading since that seems to imply that the copyright law disappears. It would seem that certain criteria have to be met - perhaps you mean "fair use"? Correct me if I'm wrong here.
At the moment, I can't find South Korea's copyright law anywhere but since they recently "ascended" to the Berne Convention, I'll assume that they are bound by the conventions set forth in it. Perhaps the SK government will take measures to crack down on piracy rates and copyright infringements.
http://www.wipo.int/treaties/notifications/berne/0224.html
http://www.technos.net/tq_04/tq_03/2wasch.htm
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/law/copyright/faq/part4/
CM
edit: fixed typo |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
| Gord wrote: |
| Copyright laws are suspended when a copyrighted material is to be used in an educational setting. |
For some reason, this statement looks like it was part of an earlier thread somewhere. |
Correct. See Gord's last post in this thread where he talks about the original poster asking if she could copy a children's book for class use. |
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mourningclam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| So I guess my boss considers it "fair use" when he copies the whole book or parts of it and resells them to the students as individual books. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Hey. I've got these little white bumps on my sack. Should I pop them?  |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:03 am Post subject: |
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I copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and 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copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy and copy...
...and copy some more.
I can't imagine just teaching with one assigned book.
Copyright be damned. |
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