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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Homer...it cut BOTH ways. Many Koreans served due to coercion, but many served for reasons that related to what they perceived as "social mobility". That applied to Koreans serving in both military & civilian capacities. |
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JacktheCat
Joined: 08 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Jack...in the Japanese empire...voluntary was not a very often used term...
It was called a compulsory draft...you serve or you suffer the consequences. |
Many Koreans volunteered for the Japanese army (Park Jung He being the most prominent example that comes to mind) for personal or social reasons. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Lyrt wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| It's a bit like the French who view their own WWII history as one of steadfast resistance against the German occupation, throwing Molotov *beep* and the like. But like any occupied nation, most people just do what it takes to live. |
Why do you speak about things you know nothing about ? |
You're saying the french aren't really cowards at heart or are you saying the french actually accept that the vast majority of them happily aided the german holocaust machine and the french people today are not in fact trying to bury their history but are really struggling to come to grips with the barbaric and cowardly aid they gave the germans? |
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Homer
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Many Koreans served due to coercion, but many served for reasons that related to what they perceived as "social mobility". That applied to Koreans serving in both military & civilian capacities. |
Mosley, this applies to most occupations during history.....
Vichy France, Roman conquests.....
| Quote: |
| Many Koreans volunteered for the Japanese army (Park Jung He being the most prominent example that comes to mind) for personal or social reasons. |
Sure they did. Those care called collaborators and opportunists. They have existed in most occupations that happened in history.
Fact remains that most of the "volunteers" were probably draftees. |
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Lyrt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Location: Somewhere in France
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| You're saying the french aren't really cowards at heart |
Why do you resort to insults to express your biased, unresearched opinions? Actually, if you want to sum up very very briefly the whole thing, that would be that 5% collaborated, 5% resisted, and the rest didn��t really care about what was going on.
| Quote: |
| are you saying the french actually accept that the vast majority of them happily aided the german holocaust machine and the french people today are not in fact trying to bury their history but are really struggling to come to grips with the barbaric and cowardly aid they gave the germans? |
I think you really need to read some books to substantiate your view of history. In fact the way you stated what is a distorted point of view is widely accepted in France and is happily spread through colleges and newspapers (especially Le Monde, Libération, l'Humanité, Le Nouvel Observateur, l'Express, Charlie Hebdo, et caetera et caetera). Even President Chirac officially recognized France Vichy responsibilities in July 1995.
Truth is of all occupied countries by Nazi Germany, France is the one that saved the greatest number of Jews (more than 75%).
Any other prejudiced, partial, unfounded opinions you wish to share with us?
Last edited by Lyrt on Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lyrt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Location: Somewhere in France
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Shit, this board kills accents. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Zed wrote: |
| VanIslander, can you tell us more about this Welsh connexion? I've heard of Vikings reportedly making inroads into North America (places like Manitoba or the Dakotas) but not Welsh. And the name? Is this Amerigo Vespuci tale a myth? |
Guys, the crap we learn in grade school textbooks are biased one-sided overly simplistic histories written by the victors not the defeated, and the Welsh definitely were a defeated people for a long time denigrated and made to assimmilate entirely into the culture of England in the old world and the new.
Did you know Phoenicians visited America before Jesus? The Chinese too in the fifth century? The Chinese have old reports of having crossed the Pacific Ocean to America in the fifth century, only to end up returning to China after too many difficulties with local Aboriginal peoples in "the great land". That the Basque people, a couple of centuries before Columbus, did in fact live and work in Newfoundland and Quebec for months on end as they filled up their ships with fish before heading back to the basque homeland of northern Spain and southern France?
I learned in university an amazing amount of historical evidence is continually overlooked in the public education system because of, perhaps, the vested interest in supporting the (false) tradition. Whatever.
I wasn't a history major in university but I lived with one for five years and had numerous exciting conversations with her (my then love) as she went through her undergrad, master's and into her doctoral studies in the discipline of History. She used to bring up so many facts, early reports, archeological evidence, and other evidence demonstrating the settling of Europeans in America well before Columbus.
In anthropological studies, there's long been known to have been blue-eyed, freckled, fair skinned people in the Dakotas who spoke the local Aboriginal language with notable similarities to Welsh in their vocabulary and grammar.
It turns out a Welsh prince travelled west with two ships to a remarkable land in the 1100's and told stories about it on his return to Wales, eventually leaving again for the western land again a second time afterwards, with ships never to return.
Here's a book about the voyages and colony of Welsh Prince Madoc in the 12th Century: http://home.att.net/~dana.olson/
Plus,
"Madoc ab (son of) Owen Gwynned,, brought two groups of colonists from Wales to America in 1170 and 1190. He did this following the example of Brendan the Irish Abbot, who went to escape the Vikings, who referred to the monks they found in America as Unipods. This obviously alluding to the ground-length robes they wore.
Owen Gwynned was descended from Viking kings of Dublin. According to the exhaustive study of the Welsh Indian legends, Madoc and the Discovery of America, by Richard Deacon, Madoc was the son of Owen Gwynned by Brenda, daughter of Howell of Carno. The ancestry of his father and the name of his mother indicate the mythology that drove Madoc. Deacon clearly indicates that Owen Gwynned cohabited with many of the royalty he visited or conquered in war, in his constant struggle against the European Normans and their allies. Celts generally followed this pattern, when they came from Wales, Scotland or Ireland to America, thus having sons in line for kingship among many Indian tribes. This is too well known a pattern to belabor.
The Madoc myth has been even more exhaustively and authoritatively worked by Gwyn A. Williams. His Madoc, The Legend of the Welsh Discovery of America, published by Eyre Methuen, Ltd. and the Oxford University Press in 1979 is the definitive discussion of this legend. It seems to establish the Madoc colonies as fact to be dealt with in any Serious discussion of American Indian history.
Sails of Hope, the Secret Mission of Christopher Columbus, by the famous Israeli Nazi hunter, Simon Wiesenthal, clearly indicates that there were maps extant before Columbus's time showing America. Welsh piratical activities likely yielded to the Bristol ship masters a fair knowledge of whatever facts or rumors circulated regarding continental America before 1492.
see more of the above here:
http://www.dickshovel.com/coree1.html
"The Mandan indian tribe also know as the "White Indians" is conjectured to have mixed with and therefore were descendants of prince Madog (Madoc) Owain of Wales who may be assumed an ancestor of the Madogs of Llanfydnach Wales.Prince Madog ap Owain Gwynedd was a younger son of Owain Gwynedd, King of North Wales, and Queen Brenda, daughter of the Lord of Camo, it is likely that he was born at Dolwyddelan castle in the twelfth century.
Prince Madoc of Wales and his people may have discovered America in 1170 or some 322 years before Christopher Columbus would arrive . British historian Richard Deacon writes in his book Madoc and the Discovery of America
"Prince Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd son of a king of Wales, was born in 1150 the story goes. He sailed from Wales and landed near the present site of Mobile, Alabama. He returned home, then made another voyage to the continent. This time he went up the Alabama River and other streams, then disappeared in the wilds of what is now Tennessee. But a traveler's account of the 1800's tells of fair-skinned Indians in that area who spoke some Welsh words and put sentences together in the way Welsh people do."
George Catlin, a nineteenth-century painter who spent eight years living among various Indian tribes, was among those who were impressed by the Mandan's remarkable traits. Catlin wrote: "A stranger in the Mandan village is first struck with the different shades of complexion, and various colors of hair which he sees in a crowd about him, and is almost disposed to exclaim that these are not Indians." The artist also noted "a most pleasing symmetry and proportion of features, with hazel, gray and blue eyes."
[ Ref Cor 1 ] During his long stay which lasted for years among the Mandan tribe, Catlin makes many interesting paintings of almost every aspect of their daily lives as well as written observations. Catlin was the only White man to make a written and pictoral history of these rituals and customs which included, their dwellings and torture rituals. Catlin finally came to the conclusion that the Mandan's were the descendents of the Madog people based partially on these factors.
The Mandans spoke Welsh,they used a boat which was know as the Welsh Coracle and many of the Mandans had blond hair and blue eyes.
Another account of the Madog legend is from, in James G. Perry's Kinfolk,
" Prince Madoc (son of Owain ab Gwynedd) it is said, sailed to America 300 years before Columbus in 1170 with one ship. He returned and equipped ten ships and with colonists sailed again for the new world. It is presumed that he landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama. Early explorers and pioneers have found evidences of the Welsh influence along the Tennessee and Missouri Rivers, among certain tribes of Indians.
There is no record that the Prince ever returned to the land of his birth. Peculiar things have been found in America. It is there are Welsh speaking Indians up the Missouri River called the White Indians. Also, they fish with coracles, and pull the little skin covered boats with one oar, like a spade. These boats are used in Wales today."
Later Mandan's were involved with The Lewis and Clark Expedition
see more of the above here:
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~bowen/mandans.html
"On the death of the King in December 1169, the brothers fought amongst themselves for the right to rule Gwynedd. Madog, although brave and adventurous, was also a man of peace. In 1170 he and his brother, Riryd, sailed from Aber-Kerrik-Gwynan on the North Wales Coast (now Rhos-on-Sea) in two ships, the Gorn Gwynant and the Pedr Sant. They sailed west and landed in what is now Alabama in the USA.
Prince Madog then returned to Wales with great tales of his adventures and persuaded others to return to America with him. They sailed from Lundy Island in 1171 and were never heard of again.
They are believed to have landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama and then travelled up the Alabama river along which there are several stone forts, said by the local Cherokee Indians to have been constructed by "White People". These structures have been dated to several hundred years before Columbus and are of a similar design to Dolwyddelan Castle in North Wales. Were they built by Madog and his fellow settlers?
Early explorers and pioneers found evidence of Welsh influence among the tribes of Indians along the Tennessee and Missouri Rivers. In the 18th century an Indian tribe was discovered that seemed different to all the others that had been encountered before. Called the Mandans this tribe were described as white men with forts, towns and permanent villages laid out in streets and squares. They claimed ancestry with the Welsh and spoke a language remarkably similar to it. They fished with coracles, a type of boat still used in Wales today. It was also observed that unlike members of other tribes, these people grew white-haired with age. In addition, in 1799 Governor John Sevier of Tennessee wrote a report in which he mentioned the discovery of six skeletons encased in brass armour bearing the Welsh coat of arms.
see more of the above here:
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Wales-History/DiscoveryofAmerica.htm
"Many of our visitors will be familiar with the story of Madoc, a prince of Wales who, in the twelfth century, is supposed to have discovered America. The story first appears in A True Reporte, written by Sir George Peckham in 1583. This document supported the first Queen Elizabeth's claim to the New World. It was repeated in Humphrey Llwyd's Historie of Cambria the next year. In 1810, John Sevier, one of the founders of Tennessee wrote about a belief among the Cherokee Indians that there had been a Welsh-speaking Indian tribe. Their chieftain was supposed to have told Sevier that he had heard his father and grandfather speak of a people called the Welsh, and that they had crossed the seas and landed at Mobile in Alabama.
Welsh scholars have been long been sceptical, especially since the Madoc story was promoted in the 19th century by the bard Iolo Morganwg, someone not renowned for his devotion to accuracy in the sphere of history. For many Welshmen, however, the story has long had a certain resonance and Professor Hartmann tells us that "On January 13th 1804, an American President of Welsh ancestry, Thomas Jefferson, despatched a letter to another Welsh-American, Meriwether Lewis,(of Lewis & Clark) containing a map of the Upper Missouri valley. The map had been prepared by a third Welsh-American, John Evans."
Welshman John Evans was known for his search for the 'Welsh Indians' (Madogwys ). Boasting that his family had come from Snowdon, Jefferson instructed Lewis and Clark to look for the mythical 'Welsh Indians', whose existence was continuously deferred further westwards. This instruction was given even though, as Muldoon records in '[Origen]', Evans had attested that the Mandan Indians, the tribe most frequently nominated as the descendants of Madoc, were not the Madogwys and, moreover, that there was no such people. Nevertheless, as Muldoon quotes from the journals of Lewis and Clark, upon reaching the Mandan villages in September 1805, the expedition did not hesitate in interpreting the 'empediment in their speech or bur on their tongue' as evidence that 'these Savages' were 'Welch Indians if there be any such' (Madoc, 148). Having entered into history by being brought within the discursive and political sphere of influence of a white European power, the Mandans were soon to pass out of history. Like many other Native Americans, the tribe were practically wiped out in a smallpox epidemic in 1837.
Other tribes were nominated as the Welsh indians. Certainly the most likely is the Kikuyu tribe. Mysterious and very poorly known, the Kikuyu ranged through Louisiana and West Texas into Western Georgia in the years before independence. They themselves were fairly warlike and savage, but the Cherokee claimed to have learned agriculture and charms from them. The invention of the modern Cherokee alphabet was the work of a single Cherokee, but there is the suggestion that the Cherokee had a primitive writing system which they learned from the Kikuyu, used largely for Shamanic purposes. They were still known in Louisiana in the early 19th century, but by the 1870s when historians and linguists began to take an interest, their tribes were extinct."
see more of the above here:
http://www.vialarp.org/1936/docs_welsh_indians.shtml
"In 1580, Dr John Dee, a Londoner of Welsh descent, in his "Title Royal", a document presented to Queen Elizabeth 1st (an English Queen of Welsh Lineage), mentioned 'The Lord Madoc, sonne of Owen Gwynedd, Prince of Northwales, led a Colonie and inhabited in Terra Florida or thereabouts.'
Hakluyt, a writer of daring deeds and exploration, wrote in 1582 a report on the voyages of Madoc. This was based on information he had received from a Welsh bard, one Gutton Owen, who had come across it in the chronicles of both Conway Abbey and Strata Florida Abbey, where all important events in Welsh life were recorded. Owen, at the time, was on a commission from Henry VII, who was the first Welsh King of England, to trace Henry's royal lineage.
A document in support of a proposal to solve the problem of English Catholics by 'evacuating' them across the Atlantic, prepared by Sir George Peckham and addressed to Queen Elizabeth, carried a preface dated 12 November, 1583, which stated: - 'And it is very evident that the planting there shall in time right amplie enlarge her Majesties Territories and Dominions (or I might rather say) restore to her Highnesse auncient right and interest in those Countries, into the which a noble and woorthy personage, lyneally descended from the blood royall, borne in Wales, named Madock ap Owen Gwyneth, departing from the coast of England, about the yeere of our Lord God 1170 arrived and there planted himselfe, and his Colonies, and afterward appeareth in an auncient Welch Chronicle, where he then gave to certaine Llandes, Beastes, and Fowles, sundrie Welch names, as the Lland of Pengwyn, which yet to this day beareth the same.'
The earliest known printed account of the Madoc story is from Dr David Powel��s 'The Historie of Cambria' published in 1584. 'Madoc ... left the land in contention betwixt his bretheren and prepared certain shipps with men and munitions and sought adventures by seas, sailing west ... he came to land unknown where he saw manie strange things ... Of the viage and return of this Madoc there be manie fables faimed ... And after he had returned home, and declared the pleasant and fruitfulle countries that he had seen without inhabitants, and upon the contrarie part, for what barren and wilde ground his bretheren and nepheues did murther one another, he prepared a number of shipps, and got with him such men and women as were desirous to live in quietnesse, and taking leave of his freends tooke his journie thitherward againe ... This Madoc arriving in the countrie, into which he came in the yeare 1170, left most of his people there, and returning back for more of his own nation, aquaintance, and friends, to inhabit that fayre and large countrie, went thither again.'
The story continues that in 1666 the Rev Morgan Jones, a Welsh missionary in North America, was captured by an Indian tribe with fair features and was about to be killed. But he prayed loudly to God in Welsh for deliverance, and was suddenly spared, treated as an honoured guest and found he was able to converse freely in Welsh with the natives.
see more of the above here:
http://www.madoc1170.com/evidence.htm
UNRELATED, BUT FURTHER WELSH INFLUENCE:
"Canada was explored and mapped by a Welshman.
Not only John Evans (and Meriwether Lewis) helped map the North American continent, but another Welshman, David Thompson could rightly be called "the man who measured Canada." Almost on his own, this prodigious explorer surveyed most of the Canadian-US border during the early days of the country. Covering 80,000 miles on foot, dog sled, horseback and canoe, 200 years ago, Thompson defined one-fifth of the North American continent. His 77 volumes detailing his studies in geography, biology and ethnography entitles him to the title of one of the world's greatest land geographers.
America took its name from a Welshman.
According to research conducted by an English College professor, America did not take its name from Amerigo Vespucci, but from a senior collector of Customs at Bristol, the main port from which English voyages of discovery sailed in the late 15th century. Dr. Basil Cottle, who is himself of Welsh birth, tells us that the official was (Welsh) Richard Amerik, one of the chief investors in the second transatlantic voyage of John Cabot, which led to the famous navigator receiving the King's Pension for his discoveries.
John Cabot landed in the New World in May 1497, becoming the first recorded European to set foot on American soil. As far as Amerik's Welsh connection is concerned, the word "Amerik" itself seems to be derived from ap Meuric, Welsh for the son of Maurice. (The later was anglicized further to Morris). There was a large Welsh population in Bristol in the late 15th century.
Because Cabot's voyages were made before the year 1500, they pre-date Amerigo Vespucci's interest in the New World. Professor Cottle reminds us that new countries or continents are never named after a person's first name, always after his or her second name. Thus, America would have become "Vespucci Land" if the Italian explorer really gave his name to the newly discovered continent (i.e. Tasmania, Van Dieman's Land, Cook Islands, etc.). It seems that countries or territories are named after first names only when the name is that of a royal personage such as Prince Edward Island, Victoria, etc.).
John Cabot, father of later more-famed explorer Sebastian Cabot, was the English name of the Italian navigator whose voyages in 1497 and 1498 laid the groundwork for the later British claim to Canada. He moved to London in 1484 and was authorized by King Henry VII to search for unknown lands to the West. On his little ship Matthew, Cabot reached Labrador and mapped the North American coastline from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland. As the chief customs official in Bristol, Richard Amerik could well have had his name attached to these maps; so the newly discovered continent, in England at least, became known as "Amerik's Land." We have to remember that Vespucci's voyages did not lead to the exploration or mapping of North America, maps of which were mainly British.
Vespucci had met and been inspired by Columbus. His voyages in 1499-1500 and 1501-1502 took him along the coast of South America where he discovered the Rio Plata. He discovered that the coast was that of a continent and not part of Asia (as John Cabot had thought). It was suggested in 1507 (the year Vespucci's discoveries were published) that the new lands be called America, but the name was only applied to South America, and it could very well have been taken from that already given the more northerly regions explored and mapped by Cabot. The voyage of the "Matthew" was recreated in 1997 when it sailed from Bristol to New England.
Pennsylvania is not named after William Penn.
Most Americans are taught that Pennsylvania, one of the earliest American states to be settled by Europeans, was named after the Quaker William Penn or his father, Admiral Penn. It is not so. Had William Penn, the Quaker leader, not ignored the advice of his secretary, the new colony would have been called New Wales.
In the late 17th century, many Welsh emigrants braved the horrors of Atlantic passage to flee religious persecution. The Welsh Quakers, in particular, sought lands where they could practice their own form of religion and live under their own laws in a kind of Welsh Barony. One of their leaders, surgeon and lawmaker Dr. Griffith Owen, who came to the colonies in 1684, induced William Penn to set apart some of his land grant for the settlement. The project envisioned as a kind of "Holy Experiment," involved an oral understanding with William Penn and the Society of Friends (a pact made in England before the Welsh sailed to the New World). The oral understanding set aside 40,000 acres of land (some sources give 30,000) in what is now southeastern Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, this agreement was never put into writing and later became a source of bitter controversy between Penn and the Welsh Quakers.
Even before Penn's arrival to take up lands granted to him by the Duke of York in payment of a debt to his father, Welsh settlements had begun to spread out on the west side of the Schuylkill River around the nucleus of the new city of Philadelphia. However, in 1690, in this so-called "Welsh Tract," the Colonial government abolished the civil authority of the Welsh Quaker meetings in order to set up a regular township government. William Penn himself refused the legality of the Welsh Quakers' appeal for self-government.
To the bitter disappointment of many of the early Welsh settlers, even the name of the colony was changed. In a letter written one day after the granting of the Charter, Penn wrote to his friend Robert Turner, giving particulars of the naming of the new province:
This day, my country was confirmed to me under the great seal of England, with privileges, by the name of Pennsylvania, a name the King would give it in honor of my father. I chose New Wales, being as this, a pretty, hilly country, but Penn being Welsh for head as in Penmanmoire (sic), in Wales, and Penrith, in Cumberland, and Penn, in Buckinghamshire . . . called this Pennsylvania, which is the high or head woodlands; for I proposed, when the secretary, a Welshman, refused to have it called New Wales, Sylvania and they added Penn to it, and though I opposed it and went to the King to have it struck out and altered he said it was past . . nor could twenty guineas move the under-secretary to vary the name
Thus Pennsylvania was named after a Welsh word for head and not, as the usual history books have it, after William Penn himself or after his father, Admiral Penn. (The cunning Penn must have known that the Welsh word for "head" is "pen" with a single "n" thus we have to admire his duplicity.)
At first, the Welsh language was a major tongue in the streets of Philadelphia, many of whose streets were laid out by Thomas Wynne of Caerwys, North Wales, personal physician to William Penn (his house Wynnewood remains standing, the first stone-built house in the state). Large tracts of land to the north and west of the city were given Welsh names. For instance Uwchlyn, Bala Cynwyd, Bryn Mawr, Llanerch, Merion, St. David's, North Wales, Gwynedd, Tredyffryn, and so on, all of which remain today, and many of which remain unpronouncable to native Pennsylvanians.
In 1698, William John and Thomas ap Evan bought a tract of 7,820 acres in the area, settling it in smaller parcels to other arrivals from Wales and calling it Gwynedd (the white or peaceable kingdom). Many followers soon arrived, the Baptists being numerous established Pennepak Church in 1688, the mother church of their faith in the middle colonies. In 1711, they founded Great Valley Church, Tredyffryn, "town in the valley". At the same time, Welsh Anglicans were becoming prominent in Philadelphia.
The still very-active Welsh Society of Philadelphia was begun in 1729, and is the oldest ethnic society of its kind in the United States. Since its founding, it has provided us with many men of distinction who made their influence felt in politics, agriculture, the administration of justice, as well as in industry, particularly mining and the manufacture of iron and steel.
Perpetuating the Welsh heritage, and commemorating the vision and virtue of the following Welsh patriots in the founding of the City, Commonwealth, and Nation: William Penn, 1644-1718, proclaimed freedom of religion and planned New Wales later named Pennsylvania. Thomas Jefferson, 1743-1826, third President of the United States, composed the Declaration of Independence. Robert Morris, 1734-1806, foremost financier of the American Revolution and signer of the Declaration of Independence. Governor Morris, 1752-1816, wrote the final draft of the Constitution of the United States. John Marshall, 1755-1835, Chief Justice of the United States and father of American constitutional law.
According to the Welsh Society of Philadelphia, 16 signers of the Declaration of Independence were of Welsh descent. The list includes: George Clymer, Stephen Hopkins, Robert Morris, William Floyd, Francis Hopkinson, John Morton, Britton Gwinnett, Thomas Jefferson, John Penn, George Read, John Hewes, Francis Lewis, James Smith, Williams Hooper, Lewis Morris, and William Williams. In addition to Jefferson (whose autobiography tells that his family immigrated from a place "at the foot of Snowdon" in North Wales), there were many more leading citizens of Welsh descent who played instrumental parts in the subsequent history of the nation. They include Presidents James Monroe, Abraham Lincoln, Calvin Coolidge, and Richard Nixon as well as Vice President Hubert Humphrey.
We should also mention... Frank Lloyd Wright (one of his masterpieces was named after the medieval Welsh bard Taliesin); and a host of others including the founders of Harvard, Yale and Brown Universities.
As far as the idea of a New Wales is concerned, though the Welsh settlers were numerous enough to be of great influence in the subsequent development of the colony, the refusal of William Penn to grant them self-government was ultimately of little consequence as their lands were soon swallowed up in the great wave of immigration from other European countries, particularly Germany. For example, though Welsh names predominate in what is now called "Main Line," there is no discernible Welsh presence today; and though the names Cymru, Caernarvon and others are still found in adjoining Berks County, it is German names that predominate.
see more about above here:
http://www.britannia.com/celtic/wales/facts/facts1.html |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Okay, the main problem with Van Islanders argument is that the vast majority of this stuff is simply unverifiable and mostly not accepted by mainstream historians yet. The Chinese history classes I took mentioned the "possibility" that the Chinese and their massive fleet of junks under the command of Zheng He may have visited America. Yet it's unverifiable. I'm sure this is the case for the Phonecians, whose triremes were hardly capable of crossing the Mediterranean without being in site of land on a daily basis. And the Med is slightly different than the Atlantic. I think that is a case of the Phonecian legends of being great traders (which they were) being blown out of proportion.
My biggest problems are with the Welsh story. I've travelled the Lewis and Clark route, never once have I heard mention of Jefferson seeking "Welsh Indians". Furthermore, if the Welsh did settle in the Dakotas (why there of all places? especially if they landed at Mobile, Alabama), then why did they supposedly build stone forts along the river if they were just moving through? Seriously, of all the places to land in America, why Mobile Bay? That means they had to sail all the way around Florida. And finally, I'm certainly not an expert on Welsh architecture, but I did study some neolithic architecture of the Orkney Islands off the coast of Scotland (and in doing so, learned a miniscule bit about the British Isles)... from what I recall, these people were ingenious in their use of sewage systems and such, but their villages were not laid out in any kind of orthoganal grid as the statement: "this tribe were described as white men with forts, towns and permanent villages laid out in streets and squares" seems to imply. Can someone with more knowledge enlighten me on the architectore of the Isles during the 12th century? From what I know, they did build castles and streets, but the grid pattern wasn't practiced very much at the time (certainly not like it was in China... see Chengdu).
I'm not trying to singlehandedly discredit this evidence, but I think historians are very careful about declaring it as fact before examining it in detail. Yeah, in the past things were claimed as fact far too early, but now, it's different. There are more explanations for "fair skinned people" than them coming from Wales. Don't mean to be too skeptical here, but I think this has just a bit of fact embellished by Welsh nationalism.
Edit: another point I just forgot... a few links to America would be one thing, but this article appears to claim that virtually all of American history is defined and shaped by the Welsh. This seems a bit ethnocentric to me. Surely the Welsh were important in America (rumor has it, my family traces ancestory back there, but we've been in America for so long, it's hard to know)... but I don't think that the Welsh are singlehandedly responsible for all that involves the establishment of America.
Last edited by ryleeys on Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| ryleeys wrote: |
| I think this has just a bit of fact embellished by Welsh nationalism. |
The Welsh are nationalistic?
Who would have thought. . . |
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JacktheCat
Joined: 08 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Lyrt wrote: |
Truth is of all occupied countries by Nazi Germany, France is the one that saved the greatest number of Jews (more than 75%).
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Actually that would be Denmark. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:54 am Post subject: |
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My initial point was that we grow up in America and Canada and other so-called Enlightened Western nations with very narrow readings of history perpetuated by teachers and textbooks understood by historians to be bogus, outdated fictions.
Koreans aren't alone in being VERY ignorant about their past.
Not many Americans recall the underplayed media coverage a few years ago of the release of government documents that had been sealed for 50 years, showing that the publicly expressed reasons for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bogus. It turns out that the American government was well aware that the three factions in the Japanese government (yes, even the samurai) were willing to admit defeat and given into every concession demanded by the U.S. except for one condition: the Japanese wanted to preserve their Emperor as head of state. The Americans deliberated the condition, then rejected it and said they needed an unconditional surrender (not even that one condition) because they feared that even with a dismantled military, the Japanese emperor may not agree with America's post-war plans to develop Japan as an economic and military arm of the U.S. in Asia. That's right, the American government did not drop nuclear bombs and annihilate two cities in order to end the war, no, it was done to build cars and consumer goods for export to America and to ensure a longterm military presence in East Asia.
The release of these government records were met with relatively downplayed news-of-the-day type coverage, untied to the issue of the justification for nuclear bombing, and left for historians to write about in books rarely read by the general population. I doubt whether today's high school textbooks reflect the facts. I understand the oft-expressed frustration of professional historians who use standards of evidence rather than just popular misconceptions to make their claims.
Don't give Koreans too much of a hard time, as if their popular understanding of history is more ignorant than ours. We aren't so much better than them. Different in some ways, but not so much in other ways. |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| But the problem is, history simply isn't seen as that important for children to study in any country anymore... and when you only have so much time to devote to it, you have to go with the basics and with what is accepted fact. The basics change, albeit slowly... for instance, I did study in high school about "whities" giving Native Americans small pox infected blankets and massacres at Wounded Knee and such... |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| ryleeys wrote: |
| this article appears to claim that virtually all of American history is defined and shaped by the Welsh. |
My god, man, I pasted parts of SEVEN articles, each with their linked address below the quoted passage. I included the later one about Welsh influence to answer Zed's question about the origin of "America" and to establish the enormous influence of the Welsh in the founding of the United States of America, unknown to most Americans!!
Some of the many articles I quickly pasted are from academic historians, some from Welsh cultural groups, one from an encyclopedia. THERE ARE HUNDREDS MORE on the internet. And a majority of historians do acknowledge that there is a lot of evidence of Europeans in America before Columbus, other than Vikings, and that the Welsh hypothesis best fits the facts. Or so I was told by a doctoral student now a professional historian.
And neither she nor I am Welsh. I could care less what theories best explain various interesting facts. It's beside the main point: Americans have huge gaps in their understanding of history, just as Koreans do.
I'm sorry, but I've already spent too much time on what I consider to be an insignificant issue in my life.
Hope it was enough to answer your questions, Zed.
G'day. |
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Lyrt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Location: Somewhere in France
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| JacktheCat wrote: |
| Lyrt wrote: |
Truth is of all occupied countries by Nazi Germany, France is the one that saved the greatest number of Jews (more than 75%).
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Actually that would be Denmark. |
My mistake. If we talk about sheer numbers, it is France, if we talk about proportions, it is Denmark and quite possibly Belgium, but numbers are vague when it comes to the distinction between "deported" and "dead" casualties; sources are contradictory (mine are Raul Hilberg and French Jewish associations). |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Okay, first off... I still have my doubts about certain issues, but...
Next, I admit my mistakes and I would like a big ole serving of humble pie at the moment... four and twenty blackbirds to be exact. I did misread some of the points of Van Islander's post. I thought it was two articles, not seven. But also...
I perused across ESPN.com's "Page 2" a few minutes ago and came across and article by Jim Caple, one of my favorite sports writers. This summer, he will be travelling the Lewis and Clark trail. His opening article includes the following:
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On their journey, Lewis and Clark faced challenges almost as daunting as those of a No. 16 seed on the Road to the Final Four. Begin with their major goal: the discovery of a navigable water passage to the Pacific Ocean -- something that did not, in fact, exist. There were no U.S. maps showing anything beyond present-day North Dakota, but it was widely assumed that the Northwest Passage existed as surely as the Great Lakes.
For that matter, they also expected to find a single range of Allegheny-sized mountains, and perhaps wooly mammoths and mastodons, even blue-eyed Indians who spoke Welsh. |
I'll take that pie a la mode. |
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