|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
prosodic
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: ����
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:31 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| oneiros wrote: |
Things my hogwan refuses to give me, even though it's in the contract:
1. Health insurance
2. Pension
3. A functioning refrigerator
4. TV and telephone
5. Photocopy paper, board markers, or any teaching books whatsoever.
6. My visa run money.
A vcr is nothing. 
I'd probably be upset about the new contract issue, though. |
Oneiros, I hope you're near the end of your contract and can find a much better situation.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
marista99
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Location: Incheon
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Watch out - WIN School in Sung-Seo, Daegu |
|
|
| ThePoet wrote: |
| First of all, I don't work there, but I know two teachers who do... |
Don't go around trashing schools when you only have secondhand info about them. If these teachers are so unhappy they can post themselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
prosodic
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: ����
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Watch out - WIN School in Sung-Seo, Daegu |
|
|
| marista99 wrote: |
| ThePoet wrote: |
| First of all, I don't work there, but I know two teachers who do... |
Don't go around trashing schools when you only have secondhand info about them. If these teachers are so unhappy they can post themselves. |
I'm going to ignore this since the OP has been very nice and isn't really trashing the school. He has already conceded that most of the complaints are minor.
Here's something that I am very hesitant to do, but which seems warranted after three months of trying to reason and negotiate with the hagwon owner. Suggest that your friends start the next conversation like this, "Well, I was just talking with an officer at the �뵿�� (nohdongbu=Ministry of Labor), you know, just asking some general questions, and he told me that an employer is required to provide justifiable cause for firing an employee and that refusing to sign a different contract is not justifiable cause. And he also said that there has to be thirty days notice even if there is justifiable cause." It will definitely get his attention, especially if they say the Korean word �뵿�� rather than the English name "Ministry of Labor."
You have to be very carefull when doing this. Make sure it's clear that an official complaint has not been filed and that there is no plan to do so. Employers in Korea flout labor law partly because they rightly assume that your typical foreigner has no clue about his or her legal rights. Sometimes, it's enough just to let them know that you're not completely ignorant and that you know how to file a complaint with the Labor Board if it gets to that point.
I know that there are people on this board who will say that I'm a fool for even suggesting this, but so be it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ThePoet
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: No longer in Korea - just lurking here
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Watch out - WIN School in Sung-Seo, Daegu |
|
|
| marista99 wrote: |
| ThePoet wrote: |
| First of all, I don't work there, but I know two teachers who do... |
Don't go around trashing schools when you only have secondhand info about them. If these teachers are so unhappy they can post themselves. |
You are correct, it is a mistake I won't make again.
Poet |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Juggertha
Joined: 27 May 2003
Location: Anyang, Korea
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I wouln't worry too much about it Poet. I think it was worded well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oneiros
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Location: Villa Straylight
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| prosodic wrote: |
Oneiros, I hope you're near the end of your contract and can find a much better situation. |
Yup. I quit. I've only got a couple of weeks left.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| chronicpride wrote: |
Thanks for the label. I had you figured to be the type to be above that. I guess I shouldn't assume, either. |
Zing!!!
| Quote: |
I don't see any actual mention of this specifically happening, other than the 3rd party OP talking about a cancellation of health insurance and the changing of the health insurance plan going from public to private. If you were good at assuming, you might pick out something here.
|
Yep! I understand why the health insurance sheme was suddenly cancelled without prior warning. The director decided to donate the surplus cash to the local save the dog fund. Geez, why didn't I think of that?
| Quote: |
| What, you mean, the part about unpaid prep time? Which means that they are being paid for teaching hours, not work hours? I know of very few people working for paid prep time. |
The employees were forced to sign a new contract which stipulated they must come into work 40 minutes earlier than previously agreed. The director said that the teacher would receive no extra pay. Thus, the teacher is being forced to work 40 minutes extra every day without pay.
http://shr.aaas.org/docs/index.php?insid=113
Err.... Yep it's a human rights abuse. Now get back on here and give us an explaination of your earlier misguided comments. An apology for misleading this board might be a good idea too. [/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| schwa wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Not to mention the human rights abuse that has taken place here. |
What planet are you living on? The thread is about a bit of financial finagling. |
I can only assume that you have been aboard that spacecraft which has been beaming pictures of Saturn's rings back to the world. It's amazing when human rights abuses get relegated to "financial finagling". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
Yep! I understand why the health insurance sheme was suddenly cancelled without prior warning. The director decided to donate the surplus cash to the local save the dog fund. Geez, why didn't I think of that? |
Again, other than you assuming it, I don't see this being mentioned anywhere. I don't agree with the logic of assuming on a 3rd party's testimony of one side of a two sided story.
| Quote: |
Err.... Yep it's a human rights abuse. |
If you want to approach unpaid prep time as being a human rights abuse, ok, I'll give you that. But given that unpaid prep time is the norm over here, I don't see the point of holding that against this school, in particular, when it should be held against all schools that have unpaid prep time in their contracts. I don't think it is worthwhile for anyone's research to bang something like this over one school's head, when virtually every single other place that you will sign, has unpaid prep time.
Next thing you know we will start seeing newbie's posts saying, 'I can't find a job here, because every contract that I see has unpaid prep time and/or teaching hours=contract hours and I won't settle, as it's a human rights violation.' And I get called misleading. 
| Quote: |
| Now get back on here and give us an explaination of your earlier misguided comments. An apology for misleading this board might be a good idea too. |
'Give us'?
'Misleading this board'?
Don't try to hijack and speak for the unspoken opinions of 'us' and 'the board'. I don't see anybody rallying behind you in your particular cause. If you are an adult and can stand on your own two feet, you shouldn't need to indirectly lobby for support in your opinion. Regardless, that you feel deep down inside that you are alone on this. We are engaged in a healthy and spirited debate. Stand tall and alone, if you have to.
The only one that is guilty of misleading, is you and your intent on fanning the flames of an incomplete negative report on a school that has been brought to our attention by a 3rd party. People need solid research in their job hunt and the engaged discussion and debate of hearsay doesn't help.
I won't lower myself to your level and taunt you to reply, but I will ask that if you want to drag this thread out on assumptions, then call up the school and hear their story. Then call the 2 teachers and hear their story. Then report back. Anything less, is just your unsubstantiated assumption and there is enough of that about schools on here, as it is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| chronicpride wrote: |
| Again, other than you assuming it, I don't see this being mentioned anywhere. I don't agree with the logic of assuming on a 3rd party's testimony of one side of a two sided story. |
Health insurance was cancelled without prior warning to the beneficary yet the contributions continued to be deducted from the beneficiary's salary. I am not making any assumptions. We just know that the director was doing something he shouldn't have been with that money.
| Quote: |
If you want to approach unpaid prep time as being a human rights abuse, ok, I'll give you that. But given that unpaid prep time is the norm over here, I don't see the point of holding that against this school, in particular, when it should be held against all schools that have unpaid prep time in their contracts. I don't think it is worthwhile for anyone's research to bang something like this over one school's head, when virtually every single other place that you will sign, has unpaid prep time.
Next thing you know we will start seeing newbie's posts saying, 'I can't find a job here, because every contract that I see has unpaid prep time and/or teaching hours=contract hours and I won't settle, as it's a human rights violation.' And I get called misleading. |
I have to come into work an hour early. You might have to too. However, we signed contracts that provided for that. We are refering to a director who didn't require this from his employees, and then decided he wanted to unilaterally alter the contract and force the employees to sign it. That's not only a flagrant violation of contract law, but it also constitutes a violation of human rights law pertaining to human rights provisions which state that forcing someone to work without compensation is a human rights abuse. It shocks me that I have to teach you this.
| Quote: |
Don't try to hijack and speak for the unspoken opinions of 'us' and 'the board'. I don't see anybody rallying behind you in your particular cause. If you are an adult and can stand on your own two feet, you shouldn't need to indirectly lobby for support in your opinion. Regardless, that you feel deep down inside that you are alone on this. We are engaged in a healthy and spirited debate. Stand tall and alone, if you have to.
The only one that is guilty of misleading, is you and your intent on fanning the flames of an incomplete negative report on a school that has been brought to our attention by a 3rd party. People need solid research in their job hunt and the engaged discussion and debate of hearsay doesn't help.
I won't lower myself to your level and taunt you to reply, but I will ask that if you want to drag this thread out on assumptions, then call up the school and hear their story. Then call the 2 teachers and hear their story. Then report back. Anything less, is just your unsubstantiated assumption and there is enough of that about schools on here, as it is. |
I am conducting an arguement about a school without having heard its side of the story. I make no excuses for that. Many accounts of hagwons are written only by a teacher and often we have to take what they say on trust. It's hardly a new trend around here. The post could be a misrepresented pack of lies by a troll. However, did I really need to post a disclaimer to the effect of "If what the poster says is true then......"? [/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| chronicpride wrote: |
| Again, other than you assuming it, I don't see this being mentioned anywhere. I don't agree with the logic of assuming on a 3rd party's testimony of one side of a two sided story. |
Health insurance was cancelled without prior warning to the beneficary yet the contributions continued to be deducted from the beneficiary's salary. I am not making any assumptions. We just know that the director was doing something he shouldn't have been with that money.
| Quote: |
If you want to approach unpaid prep time as being a human rights abuse, ok, I'll give you that. But given that unpaid prep time is the norm over here, I don't see the point of holding that against this school, in particular, when it should be held against all schools that have unpaid prep time in their contracts. I don't think it is worthwhile for anyone's research to bang something like this over one school's head, when virtually every single other place that you will sign, has unpaid prep time.
Next thing you know we will start seeing newbie's posts saying, 'I can't find a job here, because every contract that I see has unpaid prep time and/or teaching hours=contract hours and I won't settle, as it's a human rights violation.' And I get called misleading. |
I have to come into work an hour early. You might have to too. However, we signed contracts that provided for that. We are refering to a director who didn't require this from his employees, and then decided he wanted to unilaterally alter the contract and force the employees to sign it. That's not only a flagrant violation of contract law, but it also constitutes a violation of human rights law pertaining to human rights provisions which state that forcing someone to work without compensation is a human rights abuse. It shocks me that I have to teach you this.
| Quote: |
Don't try to hijack and speak for the unspoken opinions of 'us' and 'the board'. I don't see anybody rallying behind you in your particular cause. If you are an adult and can stand on your own two feet, you shouldn't need to indirectly lobby for support in your opinion. Regardless, that you feel deep down inside that you are alone on this. We are engaged in a healthy and spirited debate. Stand tall and alone, if you have to.
The only one that is guilty of misleading, is you and your intent on fanning the flames of an incomplete negative report on a school that has been brought to our attention by a 3rd party. People need solid research in their job hunt and the engaged discussion and debate of hearsay doesn't help.
I won't lower myself to your level and taunt you to reply, but I will ask that if you want to drag this thread out on assumptions, then call up the school and hear their story. Then call the 2 teachers and hear their story. Then report back. Anything less, is just your unsubstantiated assumption and there is enough of that about schools on here, as it is. |
I am conducting an arguement about a school without having heard its side of the story. I make no excuses for that. Many accounts of hagwons are written only by a teacher and often we have to take what they say on trust. It's hardly a new trend around here. The post could be a misrepresented pack of lies by a troll. However, did I really need to post a disclaimer to the effect of "If what the poster says is true then......"? |
I think that the collecting and contrasting of quotes above, fits well enough that a future viewer can read it and can come to their own conclusions. Good thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| chronicpride wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| chronicpride wrote: |
| Again, other than you assuming it, I don't see this being mentioned anywhere. I don't agree with the logic of assuming on a 3rd party's testimony of one side of a two sided story. |
Health insurance was cancelled without prior warning to the beneficary yet the contributions continued to be deducted from the beneficiary's salary. I am not making any assumptions. We just know that the director was doing something he shouldn't have been with that money.
| Quote: |
If you want to approach unpaid prep time as being a human rights abuse, ok, I'll give you that. But given that unpaid prep time is the norm over here, I don't see the point of holding that against this school, in particular, when it should be held against all schools that have unpaid prep time in their contracts. I don't think it is worthwhile for anyone's research to bang something like this over one school's head, when virtually every single other place that you will sign, has unpaid prep time.
Next thing you know we will start seeing newbie's posts saying, 'I can't find a job here, because every contract that I see has unpaid prep time and/or teaching hours=contract hours and I won't settle, as it's a human rights violation.' And I get called misleading. |
I have to come into work an hour early. You might have to too. However, we signed contracts that provided for that. We are refering to a director who didn't require this from his employees, and then decided he wanted to unilaterally alter the contract and force the employees to sign it. That's not only a flagrant violation of contract law, but it also constitutes a violation of human rights law pertaining to human rights provisions which state that forcing someone to work without compensation is a human rights abuse. It shocks me that I have to teach you this.
| Quote: |
Don't try to hijack and speak for the unspoken opinions of 'us' and 'the board'. I don't see anybody rallying behind you in your particular cause. If you are an adult and can stand on your own two feet, you shouldn't need to indirectly lobby for support in your opinion. Regardless, that you feel deep down inside that you are alone on this. We are engaged in a healthy and spirited debate. Stand tall and alone, if you have to.
The only one that is guilty of misleading, is you and your intent on fanning the flames of an incomplete negative report on a school that has been brought to our attention by a 3rd party. People need solid research in their job hunt and the engaged discussion and debate of hearsay doesn't help.
I won't lower myself to your level and taunt you to reply, but I will ask that if you want to drag this thread out on assumptions, then call up the school and hear their story. Then call the 2 teachers and hear their story. Then report back. Anything less, is just your unsubstantiated assumption and there is enough of that about schools on here, as it is. |
I am conducting an arguement about a school without having heard its side of the story. I make no excuses for that. Many accounts of hagwons are written only by a teacher and often we have to take what they say on trust. It's hardly a new trend around here. The post could be a misrepresented pack of lies by a troll. However, did I really need to post a disclaimer to the effect of "If what the poster says is true then......"? |
I think that the collecting and contrasting of quotes above, fits well enough that a future viewer can read it and can come to their own conclusions. Good thread. |
Is this the latest euphemism for "I have been trounced and I hope our audience isn't wise enough to know anything about what GB's been saying"? Still, I console myself knowing that anyone with an IQ in double figures recognises a thrashing when they see it. Good thread indeed.
BURNED. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
The point that I was referring to, was that if a reader was to follow the thread and quotes, one would see that your intent here was more about engaging in an argument and you feeding the need to win something and preserving face, rather than educating teachers on what to watch out for in a contract.
Your desire to argue rather than educate is noted twice, when you threw out taunts for me to reply. And you started off by calling me a troll. The irony of those contrasting sentences.
| Quote: |
Is this the latest euphemism for "I have been trounced and I hope our audience isn't wise enough to know anything about what GB's been saying"? Still, I console myself knowing that anyone with an IQ in double figures recognises a thrashing when they see it. Good thread indeed.
BURNED. |
With your most recent post, you just completely underscored my point and earlier reference. And I thank you for that, although I don't think it was necessary by this point.
I could retort at length to your arguments and cause you to, once again, call out to others to come to your aid (which also highlighted your self-confidence issues for all to see.), but I won't, because I'm not a therapist. And I'll walk away a better man knowing that I made you feel good about yourself, at least for a fleeting moment. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| chronicpride wrote: |
The point that I was referring to, was that if a reader was to follow the thread and quotes, one would see that your intent here was more about engaging in an argument and you feeding the need to win something and preserving face, rather than educating teachers on what to watch out for in a contract.
Your desire to argue rather than educate is noted twice, when you threw out taunts for me to reply. And you started off by calling me a troll. The irony of those contrasting sentences.
| Quote: |
Is this the latest euphemism for "I have been trounced and I hope our audience isn't wise enough to know anything about what GB's been saying"? Still, I console myself knowing that anyone with an IQ in double figures recognises a thrashing when they see it. Good thread indeed.
BURNED. |
With your most recent post, you just completely underscored my point and earlier reference. And I thank you for that, although I don't think it was necessary by this point.
I could retort at length to your arguments and cause you to, once again, call out to others to come to your aid (which also highlighted your self-confidence issues for all to see.), but I won't, because I'm not a therapist. And I'll walk away a better man knowing that I made you feel good about yourself, at least for a fleeting moment. |
But you made a stupid post. You claimed that the complaints were petty. That's why I thought you were trolling. With my great knowledge of the law I knew that what the director had done was far from trivial. I just get sensitive when directors' emissaries start excusing abuses of human rights, and flagrant violations of contract law. I am not willing to let potential ESL teachers have their expectations of directors eroded by a select few misinformed posters. I'll do a deal with you, don't make stupid posts and I won't be so combative. Okay? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
