Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Squaffy]

OK guys n gals - be honest here - some of us have spent alot of time and effort getting educated to do what we're doing now.
I think the fake certs. suk and it puts those of us who are serious teachers in a bad light.
Pls discuss.

Re: http://members.rogers.com/tesl/

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

Yes. Spending over a thousand dollars and studying my butt off (spelling, grammar, structure, teaching methods, etc.) and then having someone pay a hundred bucks to get the same certificate can sure be a pisser...

But I am not bothered too much. I am glad I took the course I took. I actually learned so many things that I would otherwise not have if I didn't fork over the thousand bucks.

[Crazy Oz]

I have spent a good number of years and a great deal of money on legitimate degrees, diplomas and certificates, yet get peeved when someone knocks a job from under me, just because they have a certificate I don't have. They may have no experience, no other relevant formal education, but they have the "one" the people are asking for at the time.
Having had this happen I am now considering getting a "ready made" version. Considering being the operative word here. The way I see it if people can be awarded legitimate degrees and other awards from legitimate institutions for never having attended just because they have made some contribution to "sport" etc in the community (eg won a gold medal at the Olympics), then why the hell shouldn't I get something for cash? Particularly if its for a lot less and includes most of, if not all of, what I have been doing for years anyway, and it improves my chances in the market place.
On the downside, it's not particularly moral, nor ethical, nor does it fill in the gaps that may well exist in my education/experience.
Spending valuable time on an "intensive" approved short course, at an often inflated price, just to gain legitimacy is not the answer either.
Perhaps an RPL type framework could be adopted in legitimate institutions for those who have the experience/knowledge, but lack the proper certification. I know this is done for many other professions, but for ESL, it seems to be non existent. At least that way people would be ablle to get qualifications without having to resort to the "buy it now" options.



Still crazy, still here.

[Butterfly]

I don't think it matters in the end, the proof is always in the pudding and if you know what you are doing, are confident, work hard your true light will show. I know a couple of people here with fake degrees, and I wouldn't shop them because I think in the end they'll shop themselves through living a lie and not being able to look people in the eye.

[satnitespecial]

After reading the advert for the non-attendance Tesol certificate I was impressed. I've reviewed a number of on-line qualification accrediting courses and was floored by the cost. Most notably I felt insure about the actual legitimacy of the so-called schools charging an arm and a leg for their paper. I've owned incorporated companies before and I've found most products in the marketplace regardless of the industry could only be as long-lived as the financial(success/legitmate) life of the company/business. In the business world the litmus test demands the investment be sound enough to justify the resource output with a tangible return.

I have a score of certificates, one bachelors, two masters degrees (all real, time-consuming and expensively gained) and I wouldn't feel any qualms about "adding" to my list of credentials. Further more,having studied methodolgy and continuing to maintain progress updates pertaining to efl/esl teaching approaches as well as having and continuing to work in the field under a myriad of professional parameters/demands, what's wrong with purchasing that little something-extra to wow the credential minded human resource crowd. We're already earned it through our professional reputations and field experience anyway.

Here's an idea.To further enhance one's qualifications, why not join professional associations; Technical Writers, etc. These are equally impressive on a resume and can easily be verified and the whole process can be concluded on-line in the time it takes to fill out the paypal form for $20.00 or whatever. That's my two-cents worth.

[jaderedux]

I have seen several online courses for a Tesol certificate. They require lessons and have tests like in any other distance earning program. Are these considered fake?

I am just curious. I just would like to be a better teacher. I am computer programmer and have degree in business but no actual teaching credentials. I do work hard. I spent alot of time on line learning methodology and I have networked with other teachers who have been more than generous with advice and help.

One thing that freaks me out a little is that some of the so called teachers are no where near as effective as some of the ones with just a Bachelors in some other field. I think because some are sooooo wrapped up in what they learned in "teacher college" that they can't seem to adapt to the craziness that is teaching English in Korea.

My 2 cents and a question.

Jade

[satnitespecial]

I agree with you Jade. I've seen Education College graduates get worked over in Korea (not all mind you) just the newbies in Korea. The commen complaint seemed to be the non-interest and lack of attention that stirred them up the most. Granted having a classes with perhaps thirty public school students could be hard to handle without Korean citizenship (to be Korean) and a respectable working knowledge of the language would , floor anyone. However, I noted a high degree of whinging that Korean students are difficult/lazy/stupid. This I think is where the fine line can be drawn between good/bad teachers. I don't think any teacher goes out of their way to be ineffective at what they do, it's just that they bring expectations directly associated with their textbooks and perhaps their perception as to how students(all) are supposed to perceive them with them. Impatience with classes that don't respond to someone who obviously works hard and has worked hard at becoming credentialed can be infuriating on anybody and is where striving to be even better through lessons learned in class and identifying/solving problem-areas' are, the key differences. Where Korea is the anti-thesis of the west; in-group/out-group, individualism/collectivism, etc, not to mention korean people do things and perceive most things differently to us. Therefore, it's likely an open-mindedness and a passion for learning is just as important to the teacher as it is for students etal. Openmindedness, preparedness to learn/experience and, a commitment in becoming better at what you do because you really enjoy what you do is paramount. Perhaps, a non-education degree holder's core advantage is their willingness to take a damn good shot coupled with a willingness to do well because they know they'd have to try hard to be a "Teacher of English language". Don't flame me for saying this but I've had trained teachers tell me that they were in it only for the money and couldn't give a brass razoo if students learned or not. I'm not saying that they aren't good because they are, it's just a fresh optimistic attitude and a joy for living, can also be avantageous for everyone.

There are good on-line master courses available where some teachers I know are studying with at the moment; Masters of linguistics,etc. The University of Tasmania appears so far to be the most popular course for one- year masters programs in language teaching. I've given up on searching for certificateEFL/ESL programs, maybe someone in this forum is aware of a credible and inexpensive course that will instruct and be helpful?

BTW. I know a number of "teachers"(on tourist visas, without esl qualification, or degrees of any persuasion) teaching illegally whose private students absolutely love them. Four-million won per month is not to be sneezed at, don't you think. Dangerous to be sure, but they love every thing about helping people (besides themselves), experiencing Korea, facing uncertainty and problem solving on a daily basis in conjunction all the finer points associated with just loving life.

My excessive two-cents worth.

[MrTESL]

I am the owner of the degree mill that Squaffy mentioned in the original post, at http://members.rogers.com/tesl/ . The whole thing came up in another thread and I said I would be more than willing to talk about what it is I do.

I expected that I�d have to answer to a hail of rocks, but reading the responses here, I agree with pretty much everything everyone has to say. They all seem to get it.

This whole thing started years ago during my first year in Korea. A buddy of mine was leaving Korea for good and we went out for a few beers. Near the end of the night he revealed to me that he didn�t have a master�s degree at all � he had spoofed it in Photoshop (ever wonder why they want the original degree at immo, or a notarized copy? Wasn�t always this way). This surprised me, as he was a university prof in Korea. I had learned a lot from him about teaching. I thought it was pretty cool that he had the balls to forge a degree, have an adventure in a strange country, and make a lot of cash in the bargain (this was before the economic crash). He�s selling watches in Canada now, unrepentant.

My contract ended and I applied to EPIK. I have a BA, but they said that if I had a TESL cert, I�d get paid 200,000 more a month. So I fired up Photoshop and made a degree. That evening�s work ended up making me a few million over the 2 years I was at EPIK.

I met many a moron in that program, some of them with more education than me. We were all doing the same work, but were getting paid differently depending on what pieces of paper we had. I saw that education didn�t necessarily mean the person would be a good teacher.

To my surprise, one of the best teachers I worked with turned out to be teaching with a falsified BA. Teachers used to come from miles around to observe his classes. He�s since left Korea, gone home to Canada, got married, had a baby, bought a house and a car with the money he made in Korea, and makes windows in a factory.

His fake degree was of exceptional quality, made with Adobe Illustrator. So I learned Illustrator.

Eventually a guy contacted me to draw a degree for his school and that led to more freelance illustration work for legitimate institutions around the world, mostly diplomas and certificates. I�ve done some beautiful work for some famous schools. This led to shady guys wanting me draw templates for their degree mills, which I did.

After leaving Korea I came to Canada and worked for one of the top TESL schools in Toronto. I was helping create their curriculum and I drew their diploma. This school is expensive, and while the teachers and the program are good, pretty much everyone passes and is sent on their way after a month. Many are woefully unprepared for the classroom, but have paid their tuition thinking that they have �learned how to teach.�

But teaching, of course, is like learning � you get what you put into it. If you want to be a teacher, it takes time and effort to learn the craft. I�ve told many clients that if they really want a good course, take the CELTA.

But most of them are like my 2 aforementioned friends � they just want a job and to travel and make a little money. They don�t want to do it forever. And who can blame them?

Canadian and American law is quite clear on the matter � a school is nothing more than a business. You register a business and you open your school. There is no central governing body that determines what makes a school and what doesn�t. The trouble comes when the school promises something that it doesn�t deliver � when it rips you off. But I�m up front about what I�m delivering and tell no half-truths. And there are a lot of people in Korea teaching with my degrees and making good money with them, having fun and the experience of a lifetime.

That�s pretty cool.

[Squaffy]

O poo - looks like I instigated a massive ad campaign.

[Blue Flower]

Personally I think buying qualifications is a disgusting practice, I think you'd have to be a pretty big loser to need a "fake" certificate, and there are absolutely no excuses for needing to fake it. Nothing comes easy, so why should education be an exception??

though on the flipside - what about honorary degrees? They are awarded without prior study....

[Crazy Oz]

My point exactly B/F. An honorary for what? Maybe Mr Tesl has the right idea. Award thyself an honorary and get some living done.

Still crazy, still here.

[Hotuk]

[Butterfly]

[jaderedux]

Actually I was looking for a actual distance learning situation.

I know many will jump on me with both feet here.......but........I am not technically qualified to teach.....I am a computer programmer and have degree in Business Admin. BTW I am teaching in a middle school and this is my second year.

I learned very quickly how to teach. I generally stay away from grammar as it is not my strong suit. I am here to teach intonation, conversation, and see that students learn to speak English not parrot back English phrases and sentences from their textbook.

I have met several "qualified" teachers that come here and beat grammar to death. Spend hours on worksheets about grammar. Well guess what? Most of the Korean teachers can run circles around most of us when it comes to correct grammar. Grammar they don't need.

I am not saying that some of the professional teachers aren't great. I have met some that are just that...fantastic. But I don't think I am a bad teacher because I don't have a degree in education. Would I venture to teach lots of grammar....nope! But I can be sure a student doesn't sound like a advertisement for Konglish. I can encourage them to practice and use English in a natural conversational way. That is my job! And to be honest I do it pretty well. My students often stop me and actually try to hold a conversation not great conversations but the fact they are willing to try to go outside their comfort zone is what makes me feel like I am doing my job. They are learning to think and speak in English. NOT JUST REPEAT A SENTENCE IN A BOOK.

I often find the "actual" teachers...unyielding...and too structured. They depend on theory the learned in a western country....and it doesn't always apply here. But often they will not waver from it for one second. They spout methodology pedagogy (sp?)and while that is great and very helpful I am sure the other side of that is; if your students won't speak English outside of what is in a book then you might as well let the Korean teachers do what they have been doing forever.

My purpose of asking the question was to find actual distance learning so I could get a TESL Certificate. I know TESOL requires actual classroom observation but I would like to start with the certitficate. I think learning something new is always a good thing. Will it make me a better teacher. Maybe....will I then start teaching grammar....NOPE! HATE GRAMMAR...will always hate grammar and that is the last thing the students need. Hell most of them can diagram a sentence better than my English teachers back home.

Well enough rambling .....I am still looking for info on a reputable actual online TESL cert course if anyone knows of one I would appreciate any info.

Thanks,
Jade

[kimcheeking]

Why not look into a distance MA in applied linguistics....I go to macquarie University and am finding the course very useful.