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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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I would love to agree with you on this one Homer, but I am afraid the analogy of a chicken restaurant is quite a bit more valid than you or I or any other idealistic teacher would like to admit....
Education IS a product. My home country is the US, and it would be a simple matter for me, as a teacher, to design a system that is built from the ground up to provide the absolute best education to every student, regardless of age or ability...I am pretty sure most other teachers have toyed with similar ideas....
The US system is NOT set up to provide the best possible education to ANYONE -- at least in the public schools -- it is intended to provide the minimal skills and knowledge necessary to create good consumers. If you are effective but "rock the boat," you are asked to move on more often than not. US schools pay based on experience, and it is quite common for schools to hire folks fresh out of college to save money on teachers' salaries...money which does not end up improving the educatiional experience for the students in any other way.
At least hakwans are honest -- they are in it for the money...and if you can demonstrate your value (and despite what is said by some in these forums, most parents DO value their children learning...they just do not trust deviations from their expectations, as most such deviations have, in their own experiences, resulted in WORSE learning situations for their children), you can find a school at which you are happy to teach....
But you ARE selling a product, just like you are in the US...only in Korea, there is a larger market for a quality product. If you are not from the US, and your school system in your home country is not in serious need of an overhaul because it is failing to fulfil its stated goals, then I apologize for my generalization, and would like to know where public schooling actually works...since I definitely want to move there....
Oh, and no, I do not think the Korean school system (and hakwan system) is especially good -- nor especially bad. I am choosing it because I have the most autonomy in the classroom, am encouraged to try new teaching strategies, am praised and rewarded for enthusiasm and dedication, and compared to other places I could be teaching (again, including the US), I am compensated extremely well.... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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If a hagwon doesn't like the way I teach, I could go teach elsewhere and they could find someone else.
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Of course you can, that's your right. But even if the new hagwon is more to your liking, the standards are still being set by management. The starting point is that THEY want a particular style of teaching, so they choose to hire you because you want to teach in that particular style. Everybody's happy. But everybody is also happy when the hagwon pays a willing teacher to act as a glorifed babysitter.
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| So, when a student says something I find offensive, I stop it immediately and let them know it's wrong in this classroom. What my director thinks about it is beside the point. |
But, what would you do in a situation where the director not only disapproves of your discipline procedures, but also makes his disapproval known to you, and asks you to stop? Do you just ignore him? And, if so, how can ignoring the dictates of a director be any more justified than ignoring the dictates of a boss in any other field? What would happen, for example, to a public school teacher who continued to use a method of discipline that had been banned by the school board? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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As for the difference between a product selling business and a hakwon, it is sad that you cannot or will not see the basic difference.
No one should have to spell it out for you as a teacher.
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With all due respect, Homer, whenever someone says that a point is too obvious to require an explanation, I always assume it's because he cannot provide an explanation. I invite you to prove that assumption wrong in this instance.
Last edited by On the other hand on Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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The bar is set by the teacher in his classroom.
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So, not only do you think that hagwon teachers should answer to different standards than burger flippers, you also think that they should answer to different standards than public school teachers. Or do you think public school teachers set the bar in their classrooms? They most certainly do not, they teach a curriculum laid down by the government. If a public school teacher thinks the curriculum has been dummbed down to a ridiculous degree, he can't just waltz into class one day and start running his own show. He has to continue teaching that curriculum until such time as the government decides(perhaps after consultation with teachers) that the curriculum will be revised. And if the government never comes around to the teacher's way of thinking, that is just too damned bad for the teacher.
The difference between a public school and a hagwon is that in the former, the government runs the show for the public good, whearas in the latter the owner runs the show for his own financial gain. But in both situations, the teacher's personal views about what constitutes good teaching take a back seat. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Hand: you're right about Korean teachers being handcuffed in the public system but for this barbarian, at least, I can assure you that I have an astonishing degree of autonomy in the (public, middle-school) classroom. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Hand: you're right about Korean teachers being handcuffed in the public system but for this barbarian, at least, I can assure you that I have an astonishing degree of autonomy in the (public, middle-school) classroom.
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Mosley:
I don't doubt that. But let's face it: you enjoy this autonomy at the whim of the authorities. If the day ever came when the ministry of education decided to crack the whip, you'd have no choice but to comply. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| No doubt. Hell, I wish they'd give me SOME direction at times.... |
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Homer
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Or do you think public school teachers set the bar in their classrooms? |
Indeed they do.
I was a teacher back home before coming here and in public schools teachers do set the bar.
You can stick to the basics and not put in any extra effort to teach and then get piss poor results or you can actually teach and set the bar.
Same deal in any teaching job in my opinion. You just have to make the most of what you get unless it is completely unacceptable. Then it is your responsability to move on to a better school or to change professions. Simply accepting a school wanting you to just entertain the kids makes you just as bad as the director with such a retarded policy.
Why not try and change things? No, wait, that would involve effort and dedication.
As for the differences OTH, I said what I said because you do not seem to want to see that there is a big difference between selling a product and teaching human beings. Conditions are different, characteristics are different, responsabilities are different.
Sure a hakwon is a privately owned business that seeks to make profit. But beyond that there are the students OTH. They are not a product but rather your responsability. You may not like that and your school may be badly run but the students still remain your responsability as a teacher. You can go beyond the material and actually teach these kids. This does not exclude entertaining them as fun is part of learning and is indeed a powerful tool.
If your school is creating conditions that completely prevent you from teaching then move on and perhaps if enough teachers do this it will help improve the overall quality of schools.
Teaching is most often about going above and beyond the minimum to ensure your students learn. This applies in a school back home and in a school here. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Simply accepting a school wanting you to just entertain the kids makes you just as bad as the director with such a retarded policy.
Why not try and change things? No, wait, that would involve effort and dedication.
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But why shouldn't I accept it, if doing so suits my interests? Look, the director thinks the students want more entertainment, so he asks me to be more entertaining. I comply, the director's happy, I'm happy, and the students(assuming the director has understood their wants correctly) are happy. The only people who might be unhappy are other teachers who think that my approach is lowering the bar for the hagwon industry. But guess what, no one is forcing them to teach at a hagwon. The public schools are always taking applications. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
Or do you think public school teachers set the bar in their classrooms?
Indeed they do.
I was a teacher back home before coming here and in public schools teachers do set the bar.
You can stick to the basics and not put in any extra effort to teach and then get piss poor results or you can actually teach and set the bar.
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You might have the right to supplement the curriculum, but you don't have the right to jettison the basic requirements. Let's say the curriculum requires Mr. Jones to teach from a literature textbook that he considers to be downright infantile. Now, Jones can devote only the bare minimum amount of time required to the textbook, and he can bring in extra material over and above the textbook, but what he CANNOT do is refuse to teach from the textbook, or teach less than the required amount from the textbook. And a hagwon teacher who refuses to devote more time to playing hangman after he has been asked to do so by the director is no different than Mr. Jones refusing to teach from the school board's textbook.
Last edited by On the other hand on Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Dan wrote: |
What kids do is out of your control, what you do in response however, is completely in your control. If you can dictate the setting of a class, then you can command their respect by showing that you truly care for them, and thats not some big secret, thats true in education in any part of the world. |
good call. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Sure a hakwon is a privately owned business that seeks to make profit. But beyond that there are the students OTH. They are not a product but rather your responsability. |
I certainly don't say that the students are a product. What I say is that they are customers. And it is the responsibility of the owner and the employees to give the customers what they want. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:09 am Post subject: |
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The customers here would be the parents (in kids schools) not the students.
Also, from ono of your latest post in this thread I see I have been talking to the wrong person to have a constructuve debate about teaching. |
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Ryst Helmut
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Location: In search of the elusive signature...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Disagree... |
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| Austin wrote: |
| They are nice to me, because they like me. The feelings are mutual. I love my kids, and I love to touch. |
Hey, what happened to Austin? I forgot all about him.....
!Shoosh
Ryst |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Funny how many ask the question, "Hey, whatever happened to Austin?''
Long since been perma-banned.... |
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