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Homer
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 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| By that logic, I guess I have never seen corporal or homer at any of the gatherings (which is really interesting cause they are the premiere apoligists on the board) so they must not exists |
Crito...what???? 
1- Spell the word correctly
2- What does attendance to the gatherings have to do with anything?
3- As for existence...how do you know any of us truly exists...it could all be in your mind. |
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crito03
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| crito03 wrote: |
| Instead of having you heads so far up your collective assesm, maybe you should find out why it happens if you really give a damn about this country you have so much fun apologizing for. |
How about 'Instead of having your heads so far up your collective "seventh planet from the sun" maybe you should leave if you really give a damn about this country you have so much fun whining about.'
Sounds a whole lot better to me. |
Whining, yes that is what I am doing. Next time a drunk korean man chases me down a street with a piece of wood I will make a point not to whine as he beats my head in. I would fight back but as we all know if I hurt him more than he hurts me I will be fined.
Man you guys are jokes.
I don't whine btw, I am pointing out what I have seen in this country and really have not made a judgement call about it. However if the things that I see in this country and my reporting of them makes me a whiner, then don't read it.
As for all the corrections about my spelling....hahahaha. Are you guys that petty. That is a riot!!!!!
Homer I was simply taking the same approach you and the others are. I have not seen you at a gathering, you must not exist.
You have not seen abuse against females, it must not exists.
Great logic.....you guys are jokes.....hahahahaha |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
Been in Korea over 10 years. Been to innumerably more such parties. Hosted by diplomats of every nationality, race, rank, colour and time in country. Guess what? There's just one group here in Korea.  |
Sorry that is inaccurate. There are two groups here, the Korean "apologists and Korean "whiners" |
You're right, it is inaccurate -- if you took "in Korea" as meaning "anywhere in Korea"... I was specifically referring to those sorts of gatherings I'd discussed, but I can see I didn't make myself clear. Hopefully it's clearer in the context of my original post.
Good call, though. And I agree with you, in wider society there are those two groups you mention. And doubtless a third, fourth and fifth group that won't be so easily pigeonholed, and where you'll find me and doubtless many others from this board.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mr Butterfly, Mr Homer, Mr Weatherman, and myself among others are among the former group. |
Really? Any self-respecting apologist would sooner cut out his own tongue than call himself an ��apologist���� Surely now, you call yourself a "realist" like we all do, right? (I am familiar with the other names, but who's this "weatherman" person?)
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Maybe it's the people you hang out with? |
Well, work sometimes brings you into contact with people you might not prefer to "hang out with" in your free time. But your comment is well taken. (Oh yes! Those hopelessly provincial, unworldly, uncultivated rubes in the corp diplomatique! And their "been nowhere, done nothing" families! It's only natural such hicks as they wouldn't like Korea, right? I mean, they're just soooo ill-prepared for life abroad.  )
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The "whiners" are more numberous true. However that is not so much a reflection on Korea, as it is a reflection on the people who come here. |
I'd say a goodly number of the acknowledged "whiners" in Korea would be whining wherever they were. And that is understandable, too. Living overseas isn't for the majority of people anywhere. Homesickness, language / communication barriers, inability to adjust to a million different things, bad personal experiences -- all of these can turn any of us into whiners, and not just here in Korea.
But other than "born whiner" expats who you will find anywhere, it certainly hasn't been my observation that not getting along with Korea is more a reflection of the expat than the country they're trying (unsuccessfully) to get along with. (<--I know there's a simpler way to say that, but I'm coming off a brutal day's work here...)
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Korea has one of the highest salaries (for ESL teaching) and free airfare and housing. The people who come here tend to be overwhelmingly (although not totally) of a mercenary mindset. If money were not that important they would go to Thailand or China, or Europe.
Such a mindset leaves little room for cultural understanding or tolerance, although there are a few people here who have managed that feat. |
I didn��t know that about Korea offering higher salaries to ESL teachers. That's interesting. (Is one permitted to wonder why it might be that Korea has to pay more to attract people? No...best not, I think.) And so I suppose the ��mercenary mindset�� then naturally follows. I'm with you up to that point. But I don��t think you��re being fair to yourself, your colleagues or even perhaps to Korea, with the ��little room for cultural understanding or tolerance�� conclusion.
UrbanMyth, am I correct in assuming you��re here in Korea now and earning one of those "highest salaries�� for ESL teaching? Do you consider yourself a mercenary, or does that stigma apply to most of your colleagues but not to you?
It doesn't matter either way, really. The need to earn a high salary -- or the talent and qualifications to command one -- may qualify you as ��mercenary��, but does not automatically make you (nor most of your colleagues here) culturally ignorant or intolerant.
If you believe otherwise, then you'll have to provide better reasons for labelling them such.
The Guru |
Okay, that was a long post. Let me reply to it down here.
Your OP just said "in Korea". Naturally I took it to mean anywhere in Korea. Since now however you have clarified it, I agree with what you have said. And I would like to take this opportunity to clarify my own post and state that what I meant was "two main groups".
As for the apologist label, if I had called myself a realist I would have been attacked even more viciously than I have been so far. I used the label "apologist" in order to slip 'under the radar' as it were.
The "weatherman person"? The search function is your friend.
As for "the people you hang out with comment" well just below that, you admitted that "living overseas isn't for the majority of people anywhere."
You then listed a number of reasons for this. Surely some of these reasons affect some of the people you work with? But the very fact that you said "there is only one group" lead one to wonder just what kind of people you associate with that you have never heard an opposing comment. And as to that, well it takes a lot of courage to give an opposing view when everybody else is falling in line.
As to higher salaries, sure one is permitted to wonder. Might it be that Korea is a developed country (or close to it, since it has the world's 12th largest ecomony and can afford to pay a good wage?) Actually higher salaries is kind of inaccurate. Japan pays more and Taiwan pays about the same. What I meant is you can SAVE more. Anyway both Japan and Taiwan pay well, and I don't hear you asking why they have to pay so well. High pay does not necessarily mean high difficulty.
As to the mercenary mindset. If money is the most important thing, it is likely that understanding the culture is quite low on their list of priorities. As to myself, if money was the most important thing, I wouldn't be in Korea now. Money is important I give you that. But if it is the biggest factor in people deciding to move to Korea, I think those people are in the wrong business. I don't know of anyone who got rich off teaching. As for being culturally intolerant, simply look on this board. You can find many threads bashing the culture or people, and only a handful of defenders. |
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crito03
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Married too Kiwi but we go out most weekends, many times until late at night and lord in heaven, I didn't see hordes of korean men beating on korean women....strange.
Homer, gee you really spokes the good Canada.
Okay, so this is what happened to me today though! It was late afternoon, and I had an hour break between classes, so I was having a lovely samgyetang supper at the restaurant around the corner from my school. I was the only patron in the place, until about halfway through my meal a man and a woman came in and sat down. The woman was talking very angrily to the man about money. Then, to my shock, right there IN BROAD DAYLIGHT (or fluorescent light to be more exact,) she clocked him! He just kind of shrugged it off and they continued arguing. But poor fellow! I tell you, I was about ready to go over there and give that chick a taste of her own medicine. I was going to say, "We don't treat men like that where I come from, honey." I'm not scared. I could take down any Korean girl in a fight, I don't care HOW much taekwondo training they have. Korean girls are all the same, get them on the floor and they're useless. And don't even get me started on how small their chests are. But I digress. I just sat there wondering if the store owners were going to get involved. I couldn't believe Koreans would put up with this blatant show of abuse and cowardice. Finally I gave the woman the evil eye and muttered under my breath if she ever dared to slap around her poor defenceless husband again, I would be calling up my buddies and we'd be paying her a visit. Man. That kind of stuff really steams me, y'know?
Hey Corp ever heard of a paragraph.
POT MEET KETTLE
unless your english is always perfect on this board maybe you should keep your patronizing comments to yourselves |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Far from perfect indeed crito....
As you should have seen in my previous post I was merely joking around as I took your post to be a joke. Otherwise, it is rather sad and quite out of place.
But, who cares really right Crito?
You believe what you want anyway.
Cheers.
PS I maintain that this could all be in your head, perhaps you are strapped to a bed somewhere back home and imagining all this in some delirium. |
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crito03
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Hey homer that is quite a persuasive argument.
Funny how you actually haven't argued a point but rather you insulted my grammar. Then when called on that you call my op sad and out of place.
WOW you are quite talented at arguing your point.
Sadly you aren't a figment of my or everyone elses imagination....if only.
Oh yeah I am not joking. |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Ok Crito,
You want to take that road, now worries.
What does showing up at the gatherings have a to do with anything Crito?
What does it say or mean about a person?
Does it imply one is better or any more real then another person?
I fail to see the relevance of that comment Crito.
| Quote: |
| You have not seen abuse against females, it must not exists. |
The difference here Crito is that I never said that it did not exist or that I came to that conclusion.
That is your interpretation of my post. You started the mud slinging here Crito by calling some of us "jokes".
Whats the problem? Can't swallow your own medicine?
Can dish it but not take it?
This discussion centered on the perception of things and on the different ways people see things.
No one here denied that there is abuse to womne in Korea. Read again Crito.
The joke here is you my friend and the funniest part is that you contribute to making yourself a joke by reinforcing your missunderstanding of the thread.
That takes talent. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Women reporting domestsic abuse:
England 25%
Korea 38% |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Interesting stats Kiwi.
But, levels of reporting can be affected by many things.
These levels can also be measured by many things which will affect the overall result.
What is considered abuse?
What makes a report valid?
What are the available means of reporting this abuse?
What are the cultural and societal variables involved?
How much abuse goes unreported?
What level of punishement is in palce for convicted abusers?
What level of enforcement againts said reported abusers?
What level of reponse from reported abuses?
The list goes on.
Abuse happens, no denying that.
Abuse happens in Korea, no denying that.
That 13% difference however is hardly hard rock fact.
Until they come up with a reliable way of measuring abuse of this kind, stats will continue to have to be taken with a grain of salt. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:06 am Post subject: |
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That 13% difference however is hardly hard rock fact.
Until they come up with a reliable way of measuring abuse of this kind, stats will continue to have to be taken with a grain of salt.
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For the love of Jesoos Christos our Lord and Saviour who died painfully on the cross for all our sins! How many hoops do you have to jump through to maintain your precious little idea that Korea is not worse than the west in any area of life? You just provided a classic example of the agenda follower's creed: "When one encounters statistics that do not support one's position, question the statistics"
Statistics are questionable, but they are still the closest thing we have to hard information. Both surveys were government supported, so must presume they are as good as they can be. And what ever problems there are in the feild of statistics apply to both surveys equally. As for under reporting, yes, that only suggests that it could be much worse. In all likelihood, knowing the way domestic abuse is not taken seriously here and the lack of police action on it, it is highly likely that abuse is much more under reported in Korea, a shame based society, than in England.
Last edited by kiwiboy_nz_99 on Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Keep jumping Kiwi...keep jumping...
Why would under reporting be higher here? That is one hell of an assumption Kiwi.
I agree statistics are all that we have as information here. I simply said these stats you quoted are not to be taken litteraly.
Of coruse abuse happens here but to always try and put it in a better or worse frame is, in my opinion, useless.
I respect your right to do so however.
We see things differently thats all.
One could also make a strong case that you see back home as much better then it really is simply by reading your posts where home invariably comes up in a positive light when compared to Korea and this in every case.
Last edited by Homer on Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Keep jumping Kiwi...keep jumping...
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I will. I'm jumping up and down on your argument, I've just about turned it into tomatoe sauce ... hmmm pizza tonight |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:38 am Post subject: |
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will. I'm jumping up and down on your argument, I've just about turned it into tomatoe sauce ... hmmm pizza tonight
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That is rather pathetic Kiwi.
Do you work at being condescending or is it natural?
You seem to have never left the schoolyard. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Firstly Homer, very sneaky of you to edit your post so that it contains a lot more than what you originally said. Initially your whole post was what I quoted. Well done.
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| Why would under reporting be higher here? That is one hell of an assumption Kiwi. |
Very simply because domestic abuse is not taken seriously here by the cops, they still consider it family business. There is much less action taken about it here, and the women know it. I've seen cops stand by while a guy pulls his gf around by the hair and shoves her against her will into a car. The cops watch for several minutes, then they eventually have a casual chat to the guy and then send him on his merry way, gf in tow. Plus, this is a shame based culture where standing out and breaking the social code carries a powerful taboo. So, for those two reasons we can reasonably assume that abuse is probably more under reported here than at home. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:07 am Post subject: |
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That is rather pathetic Kiwi.
Do you work at being condescending or is it natural?
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Look buddy, I write seriously when you do. I gave you reasoned argument, and you gave me "Keep on jumping kiwi". That was it. Then after I have posted you edit your post and add in some serious content so it looks as though I have just been a bully.
Good one mate! |
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