Korean Job Discussion Forums

[chronicpride]

Blacklist. Blacklist. Blacklist.

You use those words as frequently and as weighted as a newb. Stick around for awhile and you'll realize how much of a punchline blacklists are. I snicker when people mention them. One-sided rants of a two-sided story from anonymous people on the internet. Here's a tip. Everything on the internet is true, factual, and is not exaggerated to serve someone's anger.

Blacklists are about as mis-guided and crooked as any teacher, recruiter, or director. Even the most popular and frequently quoted one was proven to be a scam here.

And as for you running away from the direct questions of 'have you worked there?' into to the arms of 'where's the contract?', I'll save you from needing to continue more acts of evasiveness and help out you and your bankrupt search engine skills. LOOK AT THE ECC WEBSITE IF YOU WANT TO SEE THEIR CONTRACT!! http://www.ybmecc.co.kr/index.asp?sub1=sample.

Also, if you go to a website called Google at www.google.com and you type 'ecc korea' into the blank space, it will show you all websites that have ECC and Korea listed somewhere on them. You can use the sorted list to review the current offerings of ECC, like:

http://www.trainingcanada.ca/teaching-english-overseas-iisan.php
http://www.teachoverseas.ca/Jobs/index.pl?noframes;read=689
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=12647

If all that is not enough meat for you, here is my friend's contract that he has allowed me to post (taking out any detail about him or the specific school in question):

------------------------------------------
EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT




This EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT has been made this by and between Daegu ECC); a Korean company having its office at _________(hereinafter referred to as "employer") and ( hereinafter referred to as "employee").


Employer and employee, in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein, agree as follows:
1. Employee hereby accepts Employment from employer to teach the English language in the form and manner and under the terms and conditions set forth here in this agreement.
2. The "Place of Employment" is at the address above. Employee may be required to teach outside the place of employment. In such case, employee will be reimbursed for travel expenses incurred beyond those expenses normally incurred in travel from the employees home to the place of employment.


3. Term of Agreement

3.1 The "Term of this agreement" shall include twelve(12)full and consecutive teaching sessions, and all scheduled vacations and holidays, which fall between or during teaching sessions. The total term of this agreement is approximately twelve months, commencing from the first day of session ____ , 2004 and finishing on the last day of the last session ____ , 2005.
3.2 Employee agrees to discontinue residence in Korea under the visa status sponsored by employer within five days of final termination of employment.
3.3 Periods of employment of employee beyond that covered by this agreement must be agreed to by employee and employer, in writing, at least two months before the expiration of the term of this agreement.


4. Duties

4.1 During the term of this agreement, the employee will be required to prepare to teach and carry out all required administrative duties connected with classes assigned by the employer. No regular schedule of work hours can be guaranteed to employee. Employee agrees to attend meetings and training workshops to inform employee of matters relating to employees duties and the institutes operation or to assist in employees professional development. No payment in excess of or in addition to employees monthly salary will be made for attending meetings or workshops scheduled by employer.
4.2 To meet the minimum teaching requirement of this agreement, the number of teaching periods shall be 95 teaching hours/month (1 hour= 60 mins.). The number of scheduled teaching days does not include Sundays, public holidays, scheduled vacation days.
4.3 The employer will have the authority to require employee to perform any classroom duties in excess of the minimum teaching requirement (such excess hereinafter called "overtime"), but the employer will not have the authority to require employee to teach more than 95 teaching hours each month, unless employee consents there to.


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Only teaching classes in excess of the minimum teaching requirement and approved by the employer are considered overtime. Employee will be paid at the rate of 20,000 Won for each teaching hour overtime
4.4 The employer has the authority to assign employee some non-teaching hours, within the limits on total work hours set forth herein above.
4.5 At all times during the term of this agreement, employee will directly adhere to and obey all the rules and regulations that have been, or may hereafter be, established by employer for the conduct of employee or generally for the conduct of instructors at the place of employment.
4.6 Employee agrees to dress appropriately at all times when teaching or when present on the premises of the place of employment and to follow the advice, directives and policies of employer regarding what constitutes appropriate dress.
4.7 Employee understands and agrees that, at all times during the term of this agreement, employee will strictly adhere to and obey all laws, regulations, provisions, instructions, and guidance from the Government of Korea or any local government or officials thereof.
4.8 Employee agrees to be present at the place of employment at least one hour before the commencement of each days allocated teaching schedule to allow time for organization of teaching materials and preparation for the days lessons.


5. Compensation and Other Treatment of Employee

5.1 Transportation: Employer will provide for employee an economy class ticket for passage to Korea from an international airport which is mutually agreed to by employer and employee (henceforth referred to as point of departure). On completion of the full contract period, employer will provide for the employee an economy class ticket for passage from Korea to point of departure. The return air ticket will be provided at the time of termination of employment. In the event that the employee continues employment under a subsequent employment agreement with employer, the return air ticket will be provided at the time of completion of the subsequent contract period(s). Air tickets provided cannot be exchanged for cash equivalents or transferred to persons other than the employee. Employer does not agree to, and is not liable for, compensation to employee, whether in cash or otherwise, for air ticket (s) which are not used by employee.
5.2 Orientation and training: Shortly after arrival in Korea, employee will be required to undertake orientation and training intended to provide employee with the requisite familiarity with institute operation and policies and to ensure that employee possesses adequate knowledge and skills related to duties of employment.
5.3 Salary: Employer will pay employee as compensation for all services rendered a monthly salary of 1,900,000won for each month of the contract period with employer. Salary includes legal allowance which is fixed by law. Salary will commence from the first day of teaching. Payment for part of a month of employment will be calculated on the number of days employed. Payment of the aforesaid salaries will be made in Won. Korean income taxes and Korean National Pension Scheme deductions will be withheld. Monthly salary payments will be made on or before the tenth day of the month following the month during which the employment services were provided.
5.4 Severance Payment: Dependent upon completion of the full contract period, the employee will be given an additional regular monthly salary payment. Korean severance tax will be withheld. In the event that the employee does not renew or extend employment under a subsequent employment agreement with employer, this payment will be made at the time of completion of the contract period.
5.5 Holidays and Vacation: Employee will be entitled to observe public holidays and receive vacation days during the contract term according to a yearly schedule provided by employer before the commencement of the year to which the schedule refers. There are at least 10 vacation days in each calendar year (January-December). Public holidays and vacations can only be taken as scheduled. Employee will not be paid for these holidays and vacation days.


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5.6 Absence from Duties: Salary is not maintained when employee is absent from teaching duties. Employee is entitled to 2 paid sick days. In the event that employee is absent from duties for whatever reason, monthly salary will be reduced according to the length of the absence. Reductions will be based on basic salary rate. Transference of teaching duties by employee to persons other than employee is not possible without the permission of employer.
5.7 Emergency Leave: Employee will be eligible to receive up to six (6) days of paid emergency leave in the event of death or serious illness in employees immediate family. The immediate family of employee for the purpose of this paragraph will include only parents, grandparents, grandchildren, spouse, children, brothers and sisters. Such emergency leave will be granted at the sole discretion of employer. The employee will bear the cost of transportation in the event of a need for emergency leave. Payment for emergency leave will only be made in the event that the employee resumes duties with the employer.
5.8 Medical Insurance: 50% Health Insurance Fee Sponsorship ; Employee will be covered by medical benefits. The cost of this coverage will be borne half by employer and half by employee. Due to requirements from the immigration and taxation departments, coverage will commence approximately 3-4 weeks after arrival in Korea.
5.9 Pension: Korean National Pension will be withheld monthly from employee��s salary(4.5% of salary) according to Korean law. It will be given to employee when employee complete a contract.
5.10 Accident Compensation: In the event that employee sustains injuries from an accident or mishap during the course of normal work duties, or within the premises of place of employment, employer agrees to pay all medical and hospital costs which are in excess of those covered by medical insurance.
In the event that employee sustains injuries from an accident or mishap which occurs outside the course of normal work duties, employee understands and agrees that employer will have no responsibility for, nor obligation to pay, medical and hospital costs which are in excess of those covered by medical insurance.
5.11 Housing
5.11.1 Employer will select and provide furnished living accommodation for employee. The accommodation may be single housing or in a two or three-bedroom apartment, or in a two or three-bedroom house. Apartments with two bedrooms are shared by two employees. Apartments with at least three bedrooms may be shared by three employees. Each employee will have a private bedroom and will share a kitchen and bathroom. Furnishings provided by employer for common use by employees sharing accommodation include: A kitchen table and chairs, a two-burner gas hotplate, a refrigerator, a telephone, a television, and a washing machine. Furnishings provided to each employee include: A bed, a wardrobe, and a fan.
5.11.2 The cost of monthly service, utility, and telephone charges for accommodation provided by employer will be shared by both employees. In the case that, and for as long as, employee is a sole occupancy accommodation, employer will cover half of the monthly maintenance charges. During any period of sole occupancy employee will be responsible for all utility and telephone charges for accommodation arranged by employee will be paid by the employee.
5.11.3 Employee agrees to pay employer a housing management deposit to cover unpaid monthly service, utility, and telephone charges. Such deposit amounting to 600,000 won and being payable to employer in three equal installments will be deducted from the salary during the first three months of employment with employer. Dependent on written guarantee from a guarantor acceptable to employer, employer agrees that the deposit will be returned, in full, to the employee at the time of completion of employee��s period of employment with employer, including any period of employment beyond that covered by this agreement. In the absence of such written guarantee, employer will hold the full amount of the deposit until all outstanding monthly service, utility, and telephone charges have been paid. In the event that employer makes payments covering monthly service, utility, and telephone charges on behalf of employee, the amount of such payments will be deducted from the deposit and the remainder of the deposit returned to employee. Employer agrees that payment of remaining amounts of the deposit will be made to employee within ten days after all outstanding monthly service, utility, and telephone charges have been paid.

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6. Dismissal or Voluntary Resignation

6.1 Employer will have the right to dismiss employee for unwillingness or inability to meet conditions of employment as set out under this agreement, including neglect of duties. Prior to any such dismissal, employee will be warned of dissatisfaction with performance or conduct and will be afforded an appropriate period in which to remedy the same.
6.2 Employer will have the right to dismiss employee for conduct seriously jeopardizing any student or staff person, or for criminal activity. In such instances, employer has the right under this agreement to execute immediate dismissal and no warning nor time for remedy need be allotted.
6.3 In the event that the employee is dismissed, or in the event that the employee voluntarily resigns prior to the termination of the term of this agreement, employer will be obligated to pay all salary due to date of termination. Employer will have no duty and will not be obligated to pay the cost of return transportation to point of departure for employee, nor will employer be obligated to pay any severance pay.
6.4 In the event that employee resign prior to the termination of the term of this agreement, employee agree to reimburse employer liquidated damage fees in lieu of all initial travel costs incurred by the employer.
6.5 In the event that war, civil disturbances, or political conditions prompt a directive from the government of the Republic of Korea or the government of employee��s citizenship to leave Korea, this employment agreement will be terminated as of the date of such directives. In such case, employer will provide to employee an air ticket to point of departure, irrespective of length of employment period. All salary due at date of termination will be paid. Pro-rated severance pay will be given for periods of employment of less than twelve months


7. Covenants
7.1 Employee hereby agrees, covenants, and undertakes that he/she will not undertake any teaching duties or employment with any persons or organizations other than the employer. Failure to comply with this article is cause for immediate dismissal.
7.2 Employee hereby agrees, covenants, and undertakes that he/she will not disclose teaching materials, syllabus details, or any other information relating to the academic program, whether verbally or in written form, to individuals or corporate entities not employed by employer.
7.3 Unless agreed to in writing, the employee understands and accepts that the rights to use, sale, distribution, or publication of all original material produced by the employee during the course of employees employment, and for which the employee is compensated as either regular pay, as overtime, or in an agreed-upon lump sum, remain the sole property of employer.


8. Merger Clause: This agreement constitutes the entire understanding between the parties hereto with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersedes all previous negotiations, commitments, and writings with respect hereto. No modification of this agreement will be binding or have any legal effect unless set forth in a written agreement amending this agreement and signed by both parties hereto. Furthermore, this contract nullifies and voids any previous contract between the two parties.


9. Indemnification Clause: Employee will indemnify and hold harmless employer and employers representatives from any damages which employee may sustain, in any manner, through the misconduct or negligence of employee.


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10. Waiver: The failure of either party at any time to enforce the terms, provisions, or conditions of this agreement will not be construed as a waiver of the same or of the right of such party to enforce the same.


11. Governing Language and Jurisdiction: This agreement has been drawn up and has been executed in the English language; and the English language text of this agreement will govern and prevail over any translation thereof. This agreement will be interpreted according to the internal (domestic) laws of the Republic of Korea. A competent court in the Republic of Korea will have jurisdiction in regard to any dispute or claim arising out of, or in connection with, this agreement.


Employer and employee have executed this agreement on the date indicated below. Intending to be legally bound to, and in witness of, employer and employee have appended their signatures.



Employer Employee


Date Date

___________________________________


Now, before shifting gears into another subject to evade into, could you please give us and the OP more clear intomation on your first-hand experiences of working at ECC, which is what they wanted from the beginning. Not 'I heard...' or 'other people have said...' YOUR personal experience from working there. Everything else is just hearsay.

Pssst..and here's a little tip about math. ECC and Wonderland have over 100 schools in Korea, respectively. Meaning 1000s of teachers work there or have worked there. 1000s of different personalities and perspectives. 1000s of different experiences, both good and bad. Of course you are going to hear more bad press about the largest chains, based on the sheer number of teachers and experiences that have been had or are being had there.

2+2 still equals 4, unless you ASSUME it to be 3.

[Dalton]

Too funny.

We are to believe that all blacklist entries and every complaint posted here or stated personally to me and all other people are bogus but your single post claiming that one site is a scam is to be accepted without question.

I've answered all your other questions already.

Where's the contract?
What are you afraid of?

[chronicpride]

[kprrok]

[Dalton]

[Homer]

Dalton,

You did a bang up job of shooting your own agruments down all by yourself.

That takes skill.

You did so in a few places in your last post.

Well done.

[chronicpride]

[Zyzyfer]

[Dalton]

Homer you're comment is just silly.

Chronicpride? I have to work there before I can comment on them but you don't have to? Your 'second hand' info is more credible than mine?

Blacklists are third party speculative criticism? Painfully ludicrous.

I guess the whole notion of people communicating their experiences is just a lot of BS in your humble opinion. Perhaps your anti-blacklist rants should be the topic of another thread. This one is about giving info to newbies about the well documented (on this board) negative aspects of working for YBM/ESL/SISA.

I was tempted to say 'I know you are but what am I' in the same spirit as the replies to my replies so far but what the hell. I doubt anyone is reading this crap unless they're writing a paper on poor reading comprehension or arguments that lack any semblance of connectivity to, or ackowledgement of, prior statements by the other side. So I answered your posts.

Where's the contract?
What are you afraid of?

[Homer]

No Dalton the question is what makes a complaint by an ex ECC teacher on a blacklist more valid then a testimony from an ex ECC teacher that says his or her ECC was or is a good place to work?

Your argument started by saying that ALL ECCs were crap and you based it on INDIVIDUAL complaints by teachers who had worked there.
This does not cover ALL ECCs but it says that some are bad schools.
No problems there.

Then, why are you unable (or unwilling) to accept that some ECCs are decent places when teachers who worked there come out and relate their experiences there.

If that is not you being dishonest or just downright trolling then what is it?

[Dalton]

[iamdugmoore]

I've only been here about 3 months, but my ECC is OK. They have not lied to me, and the Korean teachers are pretty helpful most of the time. The resources are good, my apartment is in excellent condition, and I get paid on time. As some of the culture shock has started to sink in it seems that I do get a bit more irritated than usual, which is expected. The schedule that has been put together for me is pretty crazy due to summer classes getting crazy, and in spite of my previous ESL experience it did not prepare me to teach kids.

I think that there are much worse schools to be working for from all I've heard. My only complaints are the hours being more eratic than I would have originally expected and that the culture shock is starting to make me a bit irritable. I think that would have been the same at most schools.

[Homer]

Well Dalton,

In fact, you had nothing to say when this thread started...so you ended it the same way you started it with trolling.

You are not giving advice to newbies, you are giving your opinion that all ECC and all of YBM is "bad" and brushing aside what others who have worked at individual schools of that chain where they had good experiences said.

A contract (or 2?) was provided.
People with work experience at various ECC's posted.
You brushed all that aside...conclusion you are a little troll.
I should not have wasted my time with your little antics.

[Zenpickle]

I was hanging out at a bar in Ansan (Handae-ap) last Friday and came across a handful of ECC teachers who claimed they were (and I quote) "110% satisfied" with their jobs.

...which is more than we can say with our situation at Brighton.

[Dalton]

More desperate attempts at damage control by deception. Homer simply repeats assertions he made earlier, completely oblivious to the existence of my responses. What is the point of this tactic?

Where is the contract?
What are you afraid of?

Who else teaches on Saturdays in Korea?
Do you work a specific minimum number of classes every month? Then you are not getting the benefit of paid national holidays.

A pretty standard contract here is for 120 hours per month.
1 class hour is 50 minutes and contains a 10 minute break hence the teacher has 100 hours of actual in class teaching time.
(120classes*50min)=100hrs.

There are about 10 paid national holidays a year so this number reduces further. 10days*(6classes*50min)=3000min.
3000min/60min=50hrs
50hrs/12months=4.17hrs per month.
So a 120 class month becomes about 95.83 actual teaching hours per month on average. 10 days paid vacation becomes 91.66 hrs of actual teaching time per an average month.

The contract last posted is for a minimum of 95 classroom hours per month to meet the contract. The 'sample contract' was for less (minimum 90 teaching hrs) but the teacher who referred to it said their contract was for more hours. 95 hours wasn't it?

So what appears to be a working condition of less hours is just smoke and mirrors. If you always work the minimum of 95 hours every month (as the two contracts stated you must and YBM always follows their contracts to the letter) then you are working more hours than the standard 120 hour contract and you are not getting the benefit of paid national holidays (perhaps vaction benefits as well?).

OT is paid only if you work more than 95 hours a month. If you work 95 hours in the same month as a paid national holiday then you should get some OT pay(according to the contracts posted). Now this is a subtle point- if you normally work 4 hours on Thursday and Thursday is a holiday then you should work 4 hours less that month or get credit for the 4 Thursday hours. If you don't then you are not enjoying the benefit of paid national holidays.

Once again this is not the same as whether you enjoy your work environment, co-workers, etc. or not. It's a contractual slight of hand and IMHO and othersHO's, it's a reason to sign elsewhere. However as I have oft stated -working Saturdays is the deal breaker for me.
I need no other info than that.

Where's the contract?
What are you afraid of?
Are you contractually obligated to work saturdays?
Are you contractually obligated to work a minimum number of hours per month regardless of holidays or vaction time?
Not a good deal IMHO.


From the last contract posted:

5.5 Holidays and Vacation: Employee will be entitled to observe public holidays and receive vacation days during the contract term according to a yearly schedule provided by employer before the commencement of the year to which the schedule refers. There are at least 10 vacation days in each calendar year (January-December). Public holidays and vacations can only be taken as scheduled. Employee will not be paid for these holidays and vacation days.

No paid holidays, no paid vacation. Hence YBM'rs with this contract work more hours -95 in an average month than those with the standard 120 class contract- 91.66. And YBM'rs have to work on Saturdays. Hmm which contract should I sign?

6 days a week, 95 hrs a month, 135 classes a month, 1.9 or less
vs
5 days a week, 91.66 hrs a month, 120 classes a month, 1.9 or more.

It's a toughie eh Homer?

oops I forgot the xtra hour of prep time every day at YBM.
(1hr*6days*52 weeks)/12=26 extra hours in an average month at YBM.
The revised hours are 121 in an average month. And that is more than 120. Just can't win with those guys. They got you coming and going.