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Squaffy
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: All over the place
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 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Tw*t - Now go lie down peacefully MrTESL and stop it. Here is not the place to advertise your (ur) fake Cert.
Do I have to get really angry here and say something that will ban me from here?
Noticed you didn't quote my previous post - I suggest you get a life cos am a tad bugged now, and I don't think you would like to hear my real reasons for this post.
Edit: funny how it was the tin man who didn't have a heart. Follow the yellow brick road. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jade I am talking about the people in Korea. Why do you persist in insisting that I am talking about the world. To be more specific, I am talking about the native speakers of English who come here and teach without a degree. That is why I said "here" Please read the post carefully before responding. BTW for someone with a real degree why do you care? Most people with a real degree are not going to waste time and effort defending those without. So why do you care? What personal stake do you have in it? |
Because I find it interesting that you SAY ONLY ...ONLY people in Korea without degrees are slackers...I find that precision delination a bit far fetched and frankly impossible. If I don't a particular behavior here you can bet I don't like it anywhere.
If you are talking in a strictly legal sense then yes it wrong to lie about a degree and get a job here that is a moot issue. However if you are talking strictly legalities then you must also follow the same tenant when it comes to everything else. I assume you never do a private lesson and never have. I assume you never have jaywalked, driven over the speed limit here. I assume you have always paid all your taxes and never once broke a law in this country. If this is true then CERTAINLY you have some degree of moral imperative but ONLY when talking about legalities.
Unfortunately yours and others seem to argue that people without degrees are some how inferior to you. Mentally and work ethically (bad choice of words if it is even a word) I find it hard to believe that you can make such a distinction. That ONLY
people in Korea who teach without a degree or buy a fake TESL certficate are bad, slackers and have no morals and are not intelligent as you.
I think you are just trying to cover up your educational elitism by saying "oh no I don't think that of everyone only people here in Korea."
So if they had stayed in Canada or America and didn't get a degree they are perfectly intellligent and have work ethic. But should they lie and come Korea and teach they suddenly become despicable lazy people.
Once they step across the ocean they immediately become a slacker driven by only love of money without the brains to to get a degree. What this makes them is a liar. Not stupid, not less than you intellectually. Just a liar.
| Quote: |
| BTW for someone with a real degree why do you care? Most people with a real degree are not going to waste time and effort defending those without. So why do you care? What personal stake do you have in it? |
Oh  so now you are going throw about snide comments about my motives because you disagree with me? Did someone somewhere make you th last word on what a people with university education can or can not believe? Did the old Alma Mater fail to advise me I should check with you on whether I can defend a principle.
Why do I care? Well, because intellectual elitism is repugnant to me. It is repugnant here and it is repugnant anywhere. I suggest you go back and read my posts. I have respect for all intelligence.....some garnered in the rarified atmosphere of University some through pure natural intelligence and some through self study and a natural curiosity about the world. I respect the person who picks up my garbage and I respect the person who is developing new vaccines against SARS...like or not ..believe it or not the world needs both kinds of intelligence.
Sorry if the fact that I disagree with your elitism bothers you. My question to you is why must you make your self better than someone. Do you really believe you have more work ethic or intelligence ONLY because you have a degree. If you do then that certainly is not my problem but yours.
Respectfully,
Jade |
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Squaffy
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| It is repugnant here and it is repugnant anywhere. I suggest you go back and read my posts. I have respect for all intelligence.....some garnered in the rarified atmosphere of University some through pure natural intelligence and some through self study and a natural curiosity about the world. I respect the person who picks up my garbage and I respect the person who is developing new vaccines against SARS...like or not ..believe it or not the world needs both kinds of intelligence. |
I just picked up on your garbage - 
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Respectfully,
Jade |
Me thinks that was disrespectfully. But I'll still buy you a drink OK |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It is repugnant here and it is repugnant anywhere. I suggest you go back and read my posts. I have respect for all intelligence.....some garnered in the rarified atmosphere of University some through pure natural intelligence and some through self study and a natural curiosity about the world. I respect the person who picks up my garbage and I respect the person who is developing new vaccines against SARS...like or not ..believe it or not the world needs both kinds of intelligence. |
Yikes, I am quoting my self.....
Me thinks my cute little mouse friend that you think there is something wrong with ME because I value the work of everyone. Not just people with degrees. Sorry guess I was brought up wrong. I was raised to believe that the contribution of people should not be measured by the amount of sheep gut hanging on their wall. (shrug) Guess I stick with that naive notion for now.
Respectfully....maybe sarcastic but I have no disrespect for the opinions of others ...... no matter how wrong they might be 
P.S. I was very happy to see the return of the mouse...and quit teasing that big ol' black cat...its not safe!
Jade...(accepting politely the beer offer) |
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cheem
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Hi Miss Jade. By now we are all aware of your feelings regarding human potential. What are your feelings regarding the ethical questions faking credentials raise? Just curious. |
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Rand Al Thor
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Locked in an epic struggle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cheem wrote: |
| Hi Miss Jade. By now we are all aware of your feelings regarding human potential. What are your feelings regarding the ethical questions faking credentials raise? Just curious. |
good question and I second it.
I don't discount that those without credentials could possibly be good teachers. However if they have such low ethics, what else are they likely to do to students? staff? or anyone?
If you have no qualms about use faked credentials then i wouldn't trust you to not steal from me (actually in a way you are stealing - since you are theoretically getting paid more for having less). |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jaderedux wrote: |
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| Jade I am talking about the people in Korea. Why do you persist in insisting that I am talking about the world. To be more specific, I am talking about the native speakers of English who come here and teach without a degree. That is why I said "here" Please read the post carefully before responding. BTW for someone with a real degree why do you care? Most people with a real degree are not going to waste time and effort defending those without. So why do you care? What personal stake do you have in it? |
Because I find it interesting that you SAY ONLY ...ONLY people in Korea without degrees are slackers...I find that precision delination a bit far fetched and frankly impossible. If I don't a particular behavior here you can bet I don't like it anywhere.
If you are talking in a strictly legal sense then yes it wrong to lie about a degree and get a job here that is a moot issue. However if you are talking strictly legalities then you must also follow the same tenant when it comes to everything else. I assume you never do a private lesson and never have. I assume you never have jaywalked, driven over the speed limit here. I assume you have always paid all your taxes and never once broke a law in this country. If this is true then CERTAINLY you have some degree of moral imperative but ONLY when talking about legalities.
Unfortunately yours and others seem to argue that people without degrees are some how inferior to you. Mentally and work ethically (bad choice of words if it is even a word) I find it hard to believe that you can make such a distinction. That ONLY
people in Korea who teach without a degree or buy a fake TESL certficate are bad, slackers and have no morals and are not intelligent as you.
I think you are just trying to cover up your educational elitism by saying "oh no I don't think that of everyone only people here in Korea."
So if they had stayed in Canada or America and didn't get a degree they are perfectly intellligent and have work ethic. But should they lie and come Korea and teach they suddenly become despicable lazy people.
Once they step across the ocean they immediately become a slacker driven by only love of money without the brains to to get a degree. What this makes them is a liar. Not stupid, not less than you intellectually. Just a liar.
| Quote: |
| BTW for someone with a real degree why do you care? Most people with a real degree are not going to waste time and effort defending those without. So why do you care? What personal stake do you have in it? |
Oh so now you are going throw about snide comments about my motives because you disagree with me? Did someone somewhere make you th last word on what a people with university education can or can not believe? Did the old Alma Mater fail to advise me I should check with you on whether I can defend a principle.
Why do I care? Well, because intellectual elitism is repugnant to me. It is repugnant here and it is repugnant anywhere. I suggest you go back and read my posts. I have respect for all intelligence.....some garnered in the rarified atmosphere of University some through pure natural intelligence and some through self study and a natural curiosity about the world. I respect the person who picks up my garbage and I respect the person who is developing new vaccines against SARS...like or not ..believe it or not the world needs both kinds of intelligence.
Sorry if the fact that I disagree with your elitism bothers you. My question to you is why must you make your self better than someone. Do you really believe you have more work ethic or intelligence ONLY because you have a degree. If you do then that certainly is not my problem but yours.
Respectfully,
Jade |
Once again Jade, you keep twisting my words. I never said only people in Korea without degrees were slackers. I said people who come over here with fake degrees are. If you are too LAZY to get a real degree that makes you a slacker. Unless of course your definition of slacker is different than mine.
Second paragraph. You are right in that I have never done a private lesson and never will. And yes I pay my taxes, (not that it's your business). As for the driving, I don't drive. As for jaywalking, that's crazy. Have you seen the way people drive here? I'm afraid to cross the street, even when the walk sign is on. To the best of my knowledge I have never broken any laws in this country. But again you are comparing oranges with apples. I find it interesting that you ignored that. Jaywalking (to take your example) is not a felony. Fraud (which is what teaching with a fake degree is) is.
As for your third paragraph, yes if you buy a fake certificate that makes you a bad person both morally and legally. You are commiting a crime and lying to boot. I also find it interesting, that you don't seem to believe that. You said "but should they lie and come to Korea to teach they suddenly become despicable lazy people" Well, yes, I find lying repugnant . If you don't then how can I or anyone else on this forum take your word about anything? Not trying to be nasty here, just wondering where YOU draw the line.
As far as telling you what you should believe, I've never done that. What I said was that, if I take the time and money to get a real degree and someone doesn't, who has PROVED their work ethic and intelligence? For all I (or you) know, the guy with the fake could very well be more intelligent and work harder. However he has not PROVED anything, beyond the fact that he has some dubious morals.
Please read carefully and try to see what I am saying. And once again, can we keep this on a civil level? I don't think I've made any snide personal comments and I'd appreciate it, if you would do the same. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hi Miss Jade. By now we are all aware of your feelings regarding human potential. What are your feelings regarding the ethical questions faking credentials raise? Just curious. |
Honestly I have to say while I don't think it is honest. I went to college...twice at 3 different schools...I have seen shady things. Cheating, people getting degrees in ridiculous courses of study that make them qualified to flip burgers and not much else. Some buy their degrees in a different way. I have seen monetary deals made...sports deals made...and a plethora of others that I find equally repugnant..some that made me ashamed to be female.
Ethical no probably not but neither is lying on your taxes...drinking before you come of age...drinking and driving...smoking pot...and a host of others. Pontificating about ethics is easy. I could sit here an rail against those few people who have fake degrees. But as I said before most of us don't have teaching degrees ...so should we be teaching children??? I mean if we are going to stick to such a strict ethical code!
If a guy says he has a degree to get a better job and then does a helluva a good job and works like a dog to prove himself and is a great teacher (in korea to teach english) employee or salesman....hmmm? is that cause to look at that person with disdain? Sorry don't have it in me. I have seen too many rich, privileged college brats thinking their degree somehow gives a free ride or ticket. Personally I respect hard work far more than any degree.
I went to college on scholarships...working...twice. It took me a long time because I didn't want to owe anybody any money. I worked hard and I am proud of it. But after what I saw in the 3 institutions I attended, I don't think ethics was a big issue on the campuses I was on. I will say the graduate students were far more serious and I have a great deal of respect for the work they do.
Now before everyone starts sputtering self righteously saying oh yeah what about doctors....none of us are doctors...or lawyers...or pretending to be such...it is different issue.
I have yet to meet any person on the planet who has never compromised an ethic or moral sometime for some reason...whether it be money, love or desperation. I try to look at the bigger picture.
Sorry I am a incurable debater. But your question was a valid one..just not one easy to answer.....
Jade |
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cheem
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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That was a better response than I'd anticipated. I have a few issues with it, however. First:
| jaderedux wrote: |
| Ethical no probably not but neither is lying on your taxes...drinking before you come of age...drinking and driving...smoking pot...and a host of others. |
I believe this argument is flawed. Yes, lying on one's taxes is a serious offense but I can't relate to this personally because I've never done it. As for the other offenses you mentioned, someone else mentioned something about comparing apples to oranges. It's hard for me to see the hypocrisy you're implying when comparing "lead foot" to an offense that results in deportation. Likewise you won't see very many threads debating the morality of jaywalking. If we're to view all actions as either lawful or unlawful, according to your argument those that go five clicks past the speed limit can't condemn those that commit fraud, and those that commit fraud can't condemn those that rob convenience stores and hijack buses. Surely you can see the futility of viewing the law in such black and white terms.
| jaderedux wrote: |
| But as I said before most of us don't have teaching degrees ...so should we be teaching children??? I mean if we are going to stick to such a strict ethical code! |
I don't understand the point you are trying to make here since you yourself justified teaching here in Korea in a previous post. Something about teaching conversation and not grammar. There seems to be a contradiction here. Please elaborate.
| jaderedux wrote: |
| If a guy says he has a degree to get a better job and then does a helluva a good job and works like a dog to prove himself and is a great teacher (in korea to teach english) employee or salesman....hmmm? is that cause to look at that person with disdain? Sorry don't have it in me. |
This is where our beliefs really diverge. As I mentioned in another post, if I was this individual's superior he'd be gone in a blink of an eye. Okay, he does a great job. But how do you know he's doing the work himself, not plagiarizing? How do you know all those glowing reports he's giving you are true? How do you know he isn't robbing you blind?
I don't like being deceived and I value honesty above just about every other trait; in the workplace, in my personal relationships, everywhere. But that's just me. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:54 am Post subject: Moral absolutes |
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First bravo to the mouse for starting such an interesting topic....!
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| Surely you can see the futility of viewing the law in such black and white terms. |
Exactly my point.
I am sorry you think my arguements flawed. I don't. I think I have been pretty clear. I have one thing left to say as I think I have made what I think and feel pretty obvious and everyone is probably getting tired of my hot air....
I am speaking here in some abstract ways so please don't anyone take this a personal attack.
Laws do not necessarily mean morality...and morality and what is right and wrong changes all the time. There are very very few moral absolutes. There are laws but they are frequently wrong and frequently ignored..here and everywhere. Prostitution is illegal here but more than one poster here has indulged. Teaching privates can be and frequently is a deportable offense...many perfectly nice people are doing that too am I ready to send interpol after them...hardly.
To pretend that legal system is a moral gauge of all that is right and just is foolish and possibly dangerous. Remember it was the illustrious legal system that gave us aparthied, Jim Crow, the Nazi Death Camps so laws and the legal system are NOT ALWAYS RIGHT...and that begs another question. If a law is wrong is it okay to break it. If one says no you must always obey laws ....blacks would still be riding in the back of the bus in America and not allowed to marry whites...and any of you American citizens who have married Korean women/men you would be considered criminals too.
Lets think of this another way ...some nice guy comes over here 8 years ago with his 3 year degree in hand or a two year degree and TEFL cert (legal) and starts teaching away. Does a great job. In fact he has been at a public school for 5 years now. He has serious relationship with a Korean national and puts down some roots....OOOOPS the laws change. He can stay but he can't teach his lively hood has been taken away because of an arbitary law. So he starts teaching illegally. So this guy in your view is a slacker? He is some how morally reprehensible because A LAW CHANGED.....? So with a flourish of a pen a person lively hood, future and life has been changed and now according to some he is a slacker and neer do well.
My friends life is filled with gray area...yes even legally. Oh I can hear some now...oh what about murder...well guess what .... there is even room there...justifiable homocide.....pms rage....battered woman syndrome. Oh an the worst one capital punishment...legal murder by the states.
Moral absolutes are tough and I can't think of one person I know personally well that wasn't nailed to a cross (sorry my religion crept up on me) that has not wavered in some way. Lied to someone...took something that wasn't theirs.....did something in desperation or a fit of rage. Did something generally heinous to someone or themselves.
Also I have read how I compared jaywalking to a felony. Well in the world of moral absolutes that you speak of it is like being a little bit pregnant....You just can have it that way. So it's okay for you to not follow the laws you want to follow.....because you think they are trivial. Hmm...What if you jaywalk some guy slams on his brakes and some poor old adjosi on a bike plows into him and breaks his neck.....oops now we have murder because of jaywalking. Think Chaos theory.
Guess what we all lie all the time. Some big some little. Most of us live by the saying Discretion is the better part of valor. God save me from a world of the brutally honest. Yes, YOU are ugly and you're fat too....Oh your English sucks....why bother even trying....hey Mrs. Kim your kid is as dumb as a box of rocks. yes...btw... you do look fat in that shamu what were you thinking??? No thanks......!
But these arguements are getting circular I respect that you don't agree with me and read your comments with interest and perhaps I will learn something from them. I often do. I am not so arrogant to think that I can't learn from others even when I don't agree with them.
Jade |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:27 am Post subject: Re: Moral absolutes |
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| jaderedux wrote: |
First bravo to the mouse for starting such an interesting topic....!
| Quote: |
| Surely you can see the futility of viewing the law in such black and white terms. |
To pretend that legal system is a moral gauge of all that is right and just is foolish and possibly dangerous. Remember it was the illustrious legal system that gave us aparthied, Jim Crow, the Nazi Death Camps so laws and the legal system are NOT ALWAYS RIGHT...and that begs another question. If a law is wrong is it okay to break it. If one says no you must always obey laws ....blacks would still be riding in the back of the bus in America and not allowed to marry whites...and any of you American citizens who have married Korean women/men you would be considered criminals too.
Lets think of this another way ...some nice guy comes over here 8 years ago with his 3 year degree in hand or a two year degree and TEFL cert (legal) and starts teaching away. Does a great job. In fact he has been at a public school for 5 years now. He has serious relationship with a Korean national and puts down some roots....OOOOPS the laws change. He can stay but he can't teach his lively hood has been taken away because of an arbitary law. So he starts teaching illegally. So this guy in your view is a slacker? He is some how morally reprehensible because A LAW CHANGED.....? So with a flourish of a pen a person lively hood, future and life has been changed and now according to some he is a slacker and neer do well.
Jade |
To compare teaching illegally to the Nazi death camps is comparing apples to oranges and very possibly QUITE offensive to anyone who lived through one of those hellish places. If you want to change laws, do so in your own country. No expat here is going to be listened to anyway. It will change when KOREANS want to change and only then.
As fpr your second paragraph, no I would not consider this fellow a slacker. If he came over legally then that's fine. So now he can't teach? Well that's tough...but no one said life was fair. To feel that Korea owns you a living just because you set down roots is nonsense. What about our own countries? We were born there and are citizens. Do they own us a job or a living? No. Then neither does Korea. Too many people come here and think that because they have white skin and are not citizens that the laws don't apply to them.
Guess what? YOU CHOOSE TO COME HERE. NOW ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES. Why is that so hard to understand? Sure the law may be unfair, unjust and arbitrary. Then leave if it is so bad. The fact that so many complain and stay tells me one thing. It isn't so bad after all. It's much better than back home. Bottom line, if you come over with an illegal degree you are breaking the law. You don't like that law? Then don't come. It's that simple. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:32 am Post subject: |
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Anyway we are getting off topic. The question was about the morality of fake degrees. According to you Jade "there are few moral absolutes".
I just have one question. Do you consider fraud and lying (purely for financial gain) to be bad? Yes or no. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| I just have one question. Do you consider fraud and lying (purely for financial gain) to be bad? Yes or no. |
Again, so black and white. Read Victor Hugo Les Miserable (although I am sure you have) Yes....people break the law...some lie some commit fraud....is it wrong....probably. But I refuse to say everyone who has ever lied to get a job is evil. I refuse to say that every one who has possibly lied to put bread on the table or pay off a student loan as evil incarnate. I know you think it is black and white but it isn't. I am sorry it just isn't.
My point is that laws are often wrong and don't necessarily reflect what it right or moral.
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| To compare teaching illegally to the Nazi death camps is comparing apples to oranges and very possibly QUITE offensive to anyone who lived through one of those hellish places. If you want to change laws, do so in your own country. No expat here is going to be listened to anyway. It will change when KOREANS want to change and only then. |
Again I think you missed the point of the statement. I would never minimize that experience and to suggest I would is offensive to me.
The statement was simply illustrating that legal system is simply wrong and sometimes even evil and immoral. So according to your thinking no matter what a law says everyone should abide by it and never question it...??? I think if you want to live your life that way you should I for one can't.
But that is me......I tend to judge people by their works and the good or bad they do.
| Quote: |
| So now he can't teach? Well that's tough...but no one said life was fair. |
How lucky for you life is so simple for some the dilemma is not is it legal but is it right. Life is just that way for me. I appreciate what you say but I am sorry I cannot simply say because someone lies they are evil. I have lied before to save someones feelings or to avoid hurting someone. Call me an evil person if you will. Fraud...hmmm.....I assume you have a teaching degree...because if you don't then like many others we are not really teachers...we are frauds in the strictest sense of that word.
Again this is getting circular. I respect your arguments apologize if I got sarcastic. I do not agree with you but wish you no ill will. You seem like an intelligent person. I guess my view of life and people is more filled with questions than absolutes. Good luck always!
Jade |
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cheem
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:54 am Post subject: |
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In your words "laws are not always right". I agree, however this is irrelevant and I'm sorry to say not particularly profound. What is relevant to this debate is what you think about the law that stipulates that esl instructors must have a diploma. From your previous posts I gather that you feel this law is unfair and consequently people are entitled to break it in the name of civil disobedience. Ugh.
I simply don't buy this. First, comparing Jean Valjean with the average esl intructor is a bit dramatic (to put it mildly). I think most people would agree that the average esler is not on the brink of starvation and that relocating to Korea is not a means of escaping a life of abject poverty. It's hard to paint such a picture of desperation when many of these eslers are routinely getting loaded in Itaewon. Second, it's hard to justify complaining about the unfairness of laws in foreign countries. I'm not trying to imply that foreigners should be held to higher standards than natives. Think about it though, given that the vast majority of would-be esl instructors are relocating to Korea out of their own free will, doesn't it strike you as a bit rich for them to cry about the unfairness of Korean laws before getting on the plane?
| jaderedux wrote: |
| So it's okay for you to not follow the laws you want to follow.....because you think they are trivial. |
No. I'm saying that I view the severity of actions in degrees. This is in contrast to your view that all actions can be divided into two groups: lawful or unlawful. If this is your sincere belief, fine. However by acknowledging so, you're also strongly suggesting that it's "okay" to rob a bank in order to pay off one's student loans. Sure it's a bit more sensational than falsifying one's credentials, but according to your definition both actions are equally "unlawful".
I'll agree with you on this: those that have lied to get a job are not necessarily evil (your word, now mine!). I will say that those who are caught have undermined their accomplishments heretofore. But then I've already stated how much I prize honesty. That's just me.
| jaderedux wrote: |
| I have lied before to save someones feelings or to avoid hurting someone. Call me an evil person if you will. |
If you don't recognize the distinction between an altruistic lie and a lie that's inspired by greed, then this debate is essentially meaningless. |
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ishiii
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have a BA that is in no way related to the english language or teaching.
I have no problem with people and there fake degrees. What does it matter when half the hogwans are looking for english babysitters who will play hangman and bingo with the kids? Go threw a BS text book with the kids, and smile when the parents stop by.
just my two cents |
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