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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Dalton wrote: |
| Your post makes no sense. You seem be trying to attach the concept of deception to this thread which asks 'what can recruiters do as opposed to the claims they make'. |
Deception is very common when people discuss their experiences with recruiters. How many people have ever said on this forum "it was my fault something bad happened"? It's almost always someone else's fault. Therein lays the problem, how can we have a realistic discussion when we collectively are covering our ears?
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| A recruiter posting as a teacher while attacking those who criticize recruiters is the only deception that would be relevant to this thread. |
So you have no problems with people manufacturing negative claims about recruiters and then using that to show how recruiters are horrible, horrible people?
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| Try typing slower. Many posters think that works when they are trying to introduce a red herring to sidetrack a relevant debate they wish to supress. Ever notice that? I do. |
What is with the amateur hour insult? Well, ok, I can play too. I am already typing slow because I know you can't read to fast. Oh har har har, I am the king. What say you swing by on Monday and we can trade jibes in a professional grade event instead of this amateur grade stuff.
Though back on track about the issue of recruiters, I raised a very valid point. People are going to raise events that never happened, and then we are going to ask how we prevent or resolve these fictional issues.
I've posted my thoughts on recruiters before and what they can and can't do to help someone after they've begun a job and either want to quit or get fired. Instead of pretending to join a noble cause to justify your throwing out insults, why not actually give some advice or request specific details? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Gord 3 Dalton 0
And Gord's question still remains unanswered. |
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Dalton
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Double post.
Last edited by Dalton on Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dalton
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Ooh, tag team.
You still make no sense Gord. UrbanMyth never does. He has an excuse. What's yours? You're a recruiter?
Your argument is nonsense. Repeating it in grander detail doesn't change that fact. You still haven't made any connection to the OP's query.
Somebody might lie therefore the whole thread is untruthful and of no value to any reader, anytime, anywhere.
I don't understand why you think you're so smart that no other teacher who reads this teachers board will spot an exaggeration or outright fantastical lie by a teacher except you? Your point is meaningless except in the context of a lame attempt to discredit the thread. This is a teachers board. We only have to worry about non-teachers creating mischief or management, recruiters posting misinformation while posing as teachers. Teachers know the score about teaching here.
Are you challenging me to a fist fight?
| gord wrote: |
What say you swing by on Monday and we can trade jibes in a professional grade event instead of this amateur grade stuff. |
Back to the thread: I don't see a response from Actioninternational. Here's a link to a FAQ on this board.
[url=http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=7750&sid=18c8ddbf2d5b08816e47cebaba34c20d]
Jack's Recruiter Rundown[/url]
An excellent post by Gord can be found there:
| Gord wrote: |
| A licenced recruiter can represent you at Immigration when dealing with them. An unlicenced rercruiter can not. |
| Dalton wrote: |
Recruiting companies and the law
A sample:
1. Are you registered with the Korean Labor Board? What is your license number?
2. Have you personally visited the Employer and ascertained the working conditions?
3. Have you personally seen the proposed premises and accommodation?
4. Do you have authority to negotiate contractual changes, or merely convey them to the Employer?
5. Most importantly, ask if the recruiter/company is actually part of an education Franchise, and are you being recruited for a school within their own franchise system, thus their independent objectivity may be biased.
6. Some recruiters have comprehensive web sites, though some of the information is somewhat different to reality, however, these recruiters are to be preferred over those who hide behind mere e-mail address
So can your recruiter answer those 6 questions? |
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ActionInternational
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dalton wrote: |
For instance who has experience with Actioninternational? A google search for actioninternational korea reveals nothing but 2 - yes that is two - links back to Dave's. Two Posts on this board?
Recruiting companies and the law
A sample:
1. Are you registered with the Korean Labor Board? What is your license number?
2. Have you personally visited the Employer and ascertained the working conditions?
3. Have you personally seen the proposed premises and accommodation?
4. Do you have authority to negotiate contractual changes, or merely convey them to the Employer?
5. Most importantly, ask if the recruiter/company is actually part of an education Franchise, and are you being recruited for a school within their own franchise system, thus their independent objectivity may be biased.
6. Some recruiters have comprehensive web sites, though some of the information is somewhat different to reality, however, these recruiters are to be preferred over those who hide behind mere e-mail address
So actioninternational can you answer those 6 questions? Or are you just finessing free advertising on Dave's? |
My reply to Dalton is here:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?p=371886
No point posting same message twice. |
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PatrickSiheung
Joined: 21 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:39 am Post subject: |
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The original topic is about what recruiters can and cannot do to help a teacher. Stating the obvious fact that not all teachers are outstanding citizens is pointless and holds no connection to the OPs original question.
I'm siding with Dalton here. Why even mention the fact that some teachers screw over recruiters and schools? It's a pretty well known fact here on the boards. You're not impressing anyone by sharing this bit of trivia. And you're certainly not contributing to the original topic. Man... some people will take any chance to sit on a high-horse, regardless if their posts are relevant or not.
Now let's stfu and stop derailing this thread. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:46 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion as a non recruiter and a non teacher,(so I am sure it will be disregarded).
Maybe if the the recruiter charged the teacher not the school they would be less likely to place people in bad schools knowingly. They would want the teacher to come to them again after 12 months for their next placement . Also bad teachers would find it harder to get work, because the recruiter would need to protect their reputation with the school to be able to sell their product(teacher) in the future.
I know people would not want to /are unable to pay a recuiter fee so maybe a percentage of wages over a set period/contact period is the fee. As the school do not need to pay a lump sum to the recruiter wages could be increased to cover the teachers recruiter fee. If the school does not pay the teacher then the recruiter cannot be paid so again cutting the chances of bad placements.
Just my 2 pennys worth ignore if you wish. |
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Dalton
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| edgellskiuk wrote: |
| In my opinion as a non recruiter and a non teacher,(so I am sure it will be disregarded). |
Don't be so quick.
I think that Korea is an employees market. That's why recruiters would have trouble demanding fees. For example a recruiting agency exists that wants 1/3 of the teachers first month's salary. But that's a very bad deal for the teacher because recruiters can't really do anything to help the teacher since they don't own own the school, recruiters are abundant and Koreans like to run their own show. Teachers know this. Licenced recruiters can accompany a teacher to immigration but this is only useful if the recruiter is a persuasive Korean. A socially conscious persuasive Korean recruiter? I think they exist. IMHO. But nobody will pay for them because well - how do you prove such a thing? It's impossible.
In the end recruiters are recruiters. If you sign with a school they recommend then they get $1000.00, the school gets a teacher and you get a teaching job in Korea. Nothing more. The promises are all a huge pile of BS. A farcical display created by all the recruiters who claim otherwise against the backdrop of blacklists and other experiential reports from teachers here..
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A socially conscious persuasive Korean recruiter? I think they exist. IMHO. |
I hope that you are right Dalton, I like to think in general human nature is good. 
I understand when you say its an employees market, but I think all the power is with the schools currently. As a buisness man I always treat best those who pay me (the customer in this case the school) and treat worst those that want to supply me (in this case the teacher), (of course I am not socially conscious  ).
The schools and recruiters get away with it because there will always be fresh meat to replace anyone screwed over. My suggestion was what I saw as the only possible solution but I am sure there are others. I realise it is unlikely it is ever going to happen however .
The system would only work if the recruiter fee was paid over the full period of the contract so if the schools screw the teacher after 8 months the recruiters fee is only two thirds of their fee. This would I am sure help give the teacher reassurance the recruiter will work harder for them, because if they don't they lose money. |
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Dalton
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:39 am Post subject: |
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And then there is the issue of the Korean govt ministries that hold sway over teachers, hogwons and recruiters.
Korea is a ride. A fun one if you enjoy a challenge and travelling IMHO. You can't employ western business principles here and expect success. Recruiting is an example of that. Contracts are another. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You can't employ western business principles here and expect success |
I think that is becoming less true as time goes on imho , but still have a fair way to go. I must admit when I get reports from korean colleagues my hair does stand on end sometimes. 
As I am not in the esl buisness I am not sure, but is their a web list of good recruiters? I always see warnings on daves about bad schools/ recruiters but can never remember seeing positive ones. I think as in all buisness interactions the only way to get positive results is independant research and that is still no guarantee because any information you get will always be slanted wether its from a school, recruiter or teacher. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:04 am Post subject: |
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What a recruiter can do( but probably won't) :My recruiter met me before coming to Korea, gave me the brutal truth about how it is here, and when I didn't run from the table, then she started talking jobs. I got e-mails with details and photos of the school and then she negotiated an amazingly good contract.
The first weekend after I arrived, she came to meet me, and give me a quick tour of the town where I was, even though she lived a couple of hours away.
When the school started ignoring the contract, or at least all the clauses that took it from average to great, she phoned and tried to talk to the school. Finally, when she realized that nothing was gonna change, and they'd stiffed her on part of the fee, she told me I could come and stay in one of her spare bedrooms till they found me a new job.
Unfortunately, she got out of the business, cause she got so discouraged dealing with my school  |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
What a recruiter can do( but probably won't) :My recruiter met me before coming to Korea, gave me the brutal truth about how it is here, and when I didn't run from the table, then she started talking jobs. I got e-mails with details and photos of the school and then she negotiated an amazingly good contract.
The first weekend after I arrived, she came to meet me, and give me a quick tour of the town where I was, even though she lived a couple of hours away.
When the school started ignoring the contract, or at least all the clauses that took it from average to great, she phoned and tried to talk to the school. Finally, when she realized that nothing was gonna change, and they'd stiffed her on part of the fee, she told me I could come and stay in one of her spare bedrooms till they found me a new job.
Unfortunately, she got out of the business, cause she got so discouraged dealing with my school |
That's a great story. Hard to find recruiters like that. I've known guys that started out as big-hearted recruiters, but then the dirty side of the biz just ate away at them and they got out. That's why I got out, too. It's great to have the intention of helping people find jobs and vice versa, but behind the veil, it's a very cold business. You ain't seen racism and stereotyping up close over here, until you do a stint as a recruiter. Too much for me. |
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ActionInternational
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
What a recruiter can do( but probably won't) :My recruiter met me before coming to Korea, gave me the brutal truth about how it is here, and when I didn't run from the table, then she started talking jobs. I got e-mails with details and photos of the school and then she negotiated an amazingly good contract.
The first weekend after I arrived, she came to meet me, and give me a quick tour of the town where I was, even though she lived a couple of hours away.
When the school started ignoring the contract, or at least all the clauses that took it from average to great, she phoned and tried to talk to the school. Finally, when she realized that nothing was gonna change, and they'd stiffed her on part of the fee, she told me I could come and stay in one of her spare bedrooms till they found me a new job.
Unfortunately, she got out of the business, cause she got so discouraged dealing with my school |
Awesome recruiter! Shame to lose genuine recruiters like that. Not easy being a recruiter.
I think when the good teacher has a fallout with the school, good recruiters can and will try help you find another school, as in this instance. |
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ActionInternational
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: What specific services should recruiters provide, then? |
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| Canucksaram wrote: |
To expand on ActionInternational's request for specifics about help from recruiters/schools, let's play "What if?".
What if you could magically wish into existence three services from a recruiter to be provided before coming over to work, and three more services to be provided after arriving and beginning your job? What would they be? |
Good question, Canucksaram!
Ok, this is just my opinion. Just ideas from reading those helpful posts and feedback. In the ideal situation, I believe that these 6 steps can be followed and done:
Before
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1. Find a good school to the best of the recruiter's knowledge that will fulfill all moral and legal obligations;
2. Assist in reviewing and negotiating contracts that is gives optimal benefits for both parties (school and teacher);
3. Check and ensure that basic provisions and facilities of the accomodation are met and within reasonable living condition according to korean standards.
After
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4. Tour the neighbourhood and provide basic information on transport, shopping, map & home address, essential contact numbers, etc;
5. Provide more specific nformation about - Where to study the korean language? Where are the foreign communities? Tours, travels, sights, entertainment?;
6. In the event that something goes seriously wrong, the recruiter will have the ability to provide constructive support services, such as contact the appropriate authorities on the teacher's behalf, and/or finding the teacher a new job (see "Before").
I think one can't go wrong with the recruiter who can provide these services. Most problems can be proactively prevented and/or resolved if these 6 services can be done.
However, teachers cannot blame the recruiter on external circumstances that are beyond the recruiter's control. Such as if a school fails to fulfill it's obligations. Such as if the teacher's are dissatisfied with the korean environment and culture. A good recruiter can of course help the best they can, within reason, limits, and time constraints.
Just my two cents worth. Any constructive criticisms or comments? |
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