Korean Job Discussion Forums

[philinkorea]

i was thinking why does it make people crazy living here sometimes. whereas people are counting down days till they leave. also is this just korea or other countries also.

i was thinking to some extent the total stress free life while being good in many ways can cause this since it causes that lack of a sense of self breaking stress barriers at home would bring. also i think the alienation caused by a foreign environmetnt if you dont speak korean etc or dont develop enough korean interests here.

its like on paper everything is so cool. we get paid more money than we know what to do with for a stress free job, guaranteed more saving than at home and more women (sorry to be shallow) and the experience of a new and exciting place but for many it turns out into a disaster.

also i guess a big factor is a lot of dodgy schools but i was thinking more of other stuff.

[chronicpride]

Also, there are a lot of people who shouldn't be here. There are people who are coming exclusively for the job, money, plane ticket, savings, etc...They underestimate how prevalent the culture is and how much they'll have to deal with it. It's not like living in the country and moving to the big city to take a job. If you come here for culture first, job second, I think you'll do alright and have a much more open mind about everything going on around you. Or even if you were to come here with job and culture, playing equal roles of interest.

The difference for me is that I'm 31, have a good resume for jobs back home, but the rat race bored me and left me unfulfilled. I was jonesing for travel, after 10 years of being a suit and having to contend with alleviating my travel/culture itch through 2-3 weeks a year. Not enough. So I came to Asia, to keep earning money, try a new vocation, but most importantly to drink in a new world.

There are a lot of people like me that I've met. In fact, most of the offline personalities that I've met, enjoy Korea. The online ones that I know, are the ones that seem to have the most trouble with it (mind you if I sat down with some people on here over a beer, I'd have an easier time communicating and understanding with online expats, as opposed to typed expression. So I shouldn't discount expats real and total feelings based on their written word.)

But as I said, I see and have met a good chunk of teachers who are here, solely, for the job. Just like a GI coming over here to a base. Except GIs don't have to deal with Korean culture on the base, as opposed to us having to deal with the culture of business in the hogwan. It's everywhere for us. The only salvation for job-first teachers is at the foreign bars or at the PC bang, which is the lily pad to this site. Maybe that's why I never encounter a lot of culture-first people on here, as much as job-first ones.

[Barking Mad Lord Snapcase]

[chronicpride]

[Barking Mad Lord Snapcase]

Chronicpride; you've made some good points, but they don't necessarily invalidate the goals and observations of the "job-first" expats - particularly the ones who speak from experience rather than conjecture.

However, I was wondering if you were willing to expand your definition of "culture-first", even if it still clear that it is only a matter of degree. There are many expats (I was one) who are - or eventually become - very curious about the culture and what makes it tick. Attempting to understand the culture may not be an admission of agreement. Indeed, it may be something closer to the opposite - or at least a way of dealing with frustration and confusion.

Let's take some extreme analogies:

I could read The Communist Manifesto to learn about Communism. Once I put the book down, have I suddenly transformed into a Marxist? Far from it. In fact, such an experience would allow me to criticise Marxism with more precision and authority than before.

Similarly, I could read Mein Kampf just to find out what the heck was going on in that fruitcakes skull. Yes, Nazi sympathists may read that book, but so do some of their sworn enemies.

On a far lighter note, I could read The Analects prior to any possible return to Korea in order to have a broader understanding of Confucianism. Such research would not transform me into an instant hot-off-the-assembly-line Confucianist, but it may allow me to have a tighter handle on what is going on around me. Chances are, however, that if Confucianism actually explains such phenomena as bribes, lack of planning and chaotic traffic - and i am actually able to see the connection - then my dislike of Confucianism may attain a weight and solidity that was not there before.

It is my suspicion that, while many of those who complain simply do not understand the culture, there are other critics who perhaps understand it too well.

edit: I completed this post before reading your latest post. It was written primarily in response to your first post on this thread.

[chronicpride]

I suppose that I can express my meaning of 'culture-first', by what it isn't. I wouldn't consider a 'culture-first' person, someone who spends 90% of their time between the hogwan, PC bang, the bars, BK, KFC, etc...and bitch and whine about the local food, people, culture, ad nauseum. If I picked up and went to Egypt, for job or not, I expect to sink right in there. To get my hands dirty and get as close to experiencing the essence of how they live and try to see life from their perspective. I don't feel that I'd be utilizing my time well to gain this cultural exposure through an internet cafe, eating McDonald's, trying to build up a network of expats to go clubbing every night, and trying to surround myself with as much western influences as possible. Unless I was solely there for financial reasons and a job.

[Real Reality]

The nation is already known for having the highest suicide rate among the 23 OECD members. It is perturbing that the suicide rate moves in parallel with our economic indicators. So does the divorce rate in Korea, which ranks the second highest in the world after the United States. A number of bankrupt young parents have killed their little children before committing suicide in recent years, giving rise to new moral problems. Children fall victim to other types of abuse and maltreatment, including family violence and negligent parents, when families break apart as a consequence of economic duress. Over 10,000 children are said to be abandoned each year, and hundreds of thousands of children from underprivileged families miss meals every day.
Fatal waves of depression
The Korea Herald (August 26, 2004)
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2004/08/27/200408270011.asp

Overall living conditions, including education, housing, medical care, transportation, immigration, and access to the Internet are pointed to as inconveniences. Not only inconveniences caused by different systems and customs in Korea, but also special discriminating practices, such as the practice of submitting two years of monthly rent in advance like a deposit, which is required of foreigners just because they are foreigners, are ubiquitous. An official in the International Cooperation Division of Seoul City admitted, "The same complaints regarding visas, transportation, education, and environment are raised every year without being solved, due to the lack of cooperation from government agencies involved and their passive attitudes."
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004070522448

Discrimination
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200212/200212250002.html

It has even been said that these dramas are like "pornography for women" in that just as pornography enjoyed by men implants an unrealistic fantasy about sex, the dramas push women into a similarly unrealistic fantasy about life. The fact that such dramas are so popular is a testament to the state of mind of the country's citizens, especially those of women. A recent study done by a Marriage Consulting Agency asked respondents what discovery about their marriage mate would disappoint them the most. The top response was "if he has no significant savings," with 24.1 percent answering this way. The next three responses on the list were also related to finances, ... Telling women to take more responsibility in their lives and become more independent is an idealistic but hollow message in today's Korean society.
Prince Charming Syndrome by Joshua Park
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/opinion/200408/kt2004082416142454180.htm

A man identified as "J" and living in Taegu married when he was a student, but this broke up in less than a year. He receives W1 million per month from his parents and whenever he needs more he asks. "J" is a typical mother's boy who can do nothing without his parents. They even paid his divorce payment settlement of W10 million. Professor Lee Jang-young of Kookmin University said that young Koreans living with the help of their parents have the illusion that their parents' assets and status are theirs.
Parasite Singles by Kim Ki-hong
http://www.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200105/200105140181.html

Foreigners See Koreans as Irrational, Unethical
A majority of foreign residents in South Korea believe Koreans lack a sense of ethics and rationality, according to a survey Saturday.
http://www.yonhapnews.net/Engnews/20031115/300100000020031115102353E3.html
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200311/kt2003111618540511990.htm

Transparency International's "Corruption Perceptions Index 2003" lists Korea 10 places lower than what it was last year, meaning the country ranked 50th. According to a recent survey, as many as 90 percent of Korea's youth think they live in a country that's corrupt, and a considerable number of them say they're ready to join the club if the occasions calls for it later in life.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200310/200310080034.html

[Demophobe]

Some people adapt well for various reasons, and some don't.

I really believe it's that simple. Despite all the complexities of being in a foreign country, some people just deal with it better.

I totally agree with chronicpride, that the individual's reason for coming and being here are paramount to their success. If you are looking at this as a "must do" sort of thing, then living here becomes a labour in itself. If you came here optionally and totally by free choice, with no other motivation that your own peaked desire, than I do believe that the chances of a successful and fruitful adaptation are very high.

The foreign teachers I have met here who come for the money (this seems to be the No.1 reason for anyone under 25 or so) are, IMHO, the complainers and seem to have trouble finding their way here. It's a constant battle.

I may get flamed for this, but it seems obvious....the 'older' crowd here (~30 +/-) are happier. They have seen some years and often have made a freewill choice to stay, and the reasons are faintly different from choosing any country, even their own.

Anyways, I think that some people are more suited to life in a foreign country. And hey....it is an Asian country, not like going to France or Germany, where there are many cultural similarities. I'm not talking about KFC here either. Korea is very, very different for Westerners and it takes a lot of adjusting and adapting to make it long-term and successfully.

Some people deal with it, some don't.

If your a nut, Korea is sure to crack you.

[just because]

I think the people who go crazy in Korea were already crazy (or just needed something to push them over the edge) when they first got here.

[chronicpride]

[SuperFly]

[rapier]

R Reality: I didn't realise Korea's divorce rate was the worlds second highest. I have come across some divorce here, but not that much.
Inyhow, its symptomatic of a money-obsessed society. Women marry for money, then divorce at the first economic downturn. Then they expect some nice waegook guy to look after her master race Kids and provide her with a passport to a new easy life in the west.

[Demophobe]

[Real Reality]

rapier wrote,
"they expect some nice waegook guy to look after her master race Kids and provide her with a passport to a new easy life in the west."

Sometimes she dumps the kids with the biological father.

Divorcing parents want to shed kids with spouse
As the divorce rate rises, more couples are trying to avoid custody of their children. Not only economic reasons but also future concerns such as the possibility of remarriage may make the children seem excess baggage. A recently divorced couple, in their 20s and both working, both tried to avoid taking their 3-year-old daughter. After the husband was designated the custodial parent, the wife's lawyer said, "I emphasized in the court that a mother cannot maintain her work while caring a child."

Another couple with a 7-year-old son and a 3-year-daughter also ended up in court. When the judge decided that the husband should take the two children, he protested, "It is unfair for me to take both children. I will ask my wife for support money." The court ruled this month that the wife should pay her husband 200,000 won ($160) per month for each child.

"More than half of those who visit me for divorce consultation do not want to keep their children," a lawyer, An Mi-young, said. "Women used to ask for money for child care from their spouse not so long ago. Now it is men who ask for money."
by Jeon Jin-bae
JoongAng Daily
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200210/21/200210210030445169900090409041.html

A survey indicated married Korean women manage an average of W14.4 million (about US$12,000) of "secret funds" without the knowledge of their spouses, who in turn had only W3.4 million (about US$3,000) kept aside -- or a mere quarter of how much their wives have tucked aside.
http://www.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200102/200102150006.html

When it comes to getting married, Korean men usually spend five times more than women.
http://www.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200011/200011230330.html

Clinical studies, conducted by Robert Trivers et al., show that women value financial prospects about twice as highly as men do, having higher standards regarding financial prospects at all stages of a relationship.
Women place a high value on a good education, the assurance of a promising career, and ambition, all of which indicate potential for making money. So money -- or the assurance of money in the future -- is the single most significant criterion in how women choose men.
http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/118_dating_advice.html

[bibimbap]

after a year here, i think korean society is fantastic... for koreans.

foreigners go crazy regularly because they are regularly mist-treated, lied to, isolated, and cheated out of money by a hagwon system that is "endemically corrupt" (that's the irish teachers' union speaking; not me).

they are segregated into their own communities (itaewon) and pushed into their own (foreigner) bars. itaewon is nothing more than a foreigner-ghetto.

you don't think korea's blatantly racist? where are all your black friends from back home? for that matter, where are your buddies with asian backgrounds? is our caucasian english somehow better than theirs? it's unspoken, but understood, that they're not welcome here. we've all heard the story of the black guy who got left at the airport when his hagwon owner discovered the colour of his skin.

so where do we caucasians sit in the mix? we're welcome, but only under certain conditions.

i've come to the conclusion that foreigners who think they are equal in korea are deluded. those of you with korean girlfriends: how do you put up with the dirty looks you get everywhere? do her parents know about you?

we are welcome here but only if we keep to ourselves, teach them english, and stay away from their women.

...it's enough to drive you nuts.