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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| thanks keguri, the post on giving and saving face is very interesting like a key to unlocking the mystery why i see koreans, say at the site of a fender bender, in LOUD and dramatic flame wars. especially when koreans are so reserved to all appearances most of the time. re; never allowing anyone higher up on the social ladder to lose face which would be unthinkable. and how in the west this social hierarchy is not so delineated.......i was talking with my wonjonim about the upcoming visa run. he wants to do it cheap, of course. he observed i'd done two before, but when i said they were both by plane, and not the cheaper ferry we were contemplating, there was a 'moment of silence'. I'd fumbled the ball by not seeing in advance a face-saving detour (pardon my dull cheese knife!) |
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antiamerican
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Who is the 'we' in "We refer to it as a unique Asian trait"? The Fonz appears to have some valid points, which you have chosen to categorize as harping. |
The "we" is the good old white guy, you know, that gangly, big nosed fella with hairy arms and ape-like features and the tendency to. . . oops! I "am" categorizing. By golly, I think it means 'The West,' since it is an English term and that's where it came from. Of course, I'm not speaking for you Bulsajo. Speaking for those who contributed to this side of the argument in this post.
About the Fonz, he's Asian anyway, aint he? Look what he's doing! He's trying to save face! |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| antiamerican wrote: |
| IconsFanatic wrote: |
| I honestly don't think "saving face" is unique to Asians. Westerns have their own unique methods of trying to "save face" for each other as well. |
Yeah, I contemplated this too, yet all I can come up with is the fact that Westerners don't consider it normal. Asians do. To lie to protect one's family is an honor, a duty, and somewhat excusable. |
That seems like a relevant difference.
Living in Korea has made me more aware of the face-saving practices back in my home country. In Canada people go out of their way to find their family and friends not at all at fault, to be "a good friend" and the like. "It's nobody's fault" is a way of saving someone else's ego.
But I think of face saving as being more selfish, as about oneself, both in Korea and abroad. It's a way of avoiding responsibility for one's actions. I'ven't heard a single person in Korea say "I'm sorry. My mistake. Won't happen again." Or anything of the like. And back home there are less people admitting their role in a problem situation than there should be.
Face saving can seem like a cop out to some of those raised in an increasingly outmoded traditional Western cultural ethic of truth-telling, moral responsibility and forgiveness. Or so it seems to me. |
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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:15 am Post subject: |
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This deserves more discussion, and I think it'll come. But all I can think of at the moment is a practical, irksome example that annoys the heck out of me and makes me think how bogus this Asian 'face-saving' is, how ridiculous. But it's an evolution of culture in a system which works, and my annoyance is like a bug about a headlight.
But before I drop it, here it is. When I go to friggin' Walmart, which is supposedly a bastion of Western-ness (it isn't here, of course, its been 'transmuted') there are lockers. The ones that don't work aren't repaired, and there is no sign saying 'out of order'. Maybe they aren't repaired because no 'out of order' sign keeps the problem unseen, even to the management  . Silly me I plug a coin into the locker which still hasn't been repaired. Pardon my 'cultural insensitivity' for expecting it to have been.
I've seen the same thing at Lotte Mart and other places. Months, almost a year. The same out of order lockers not acknowledged and not repaired.
There, I feel better now. Supposedly you all know what I'm talking about. But wait, an apologist will jump in playing his lute with hordes of friendly, reasonable Koreans at his side and sing, 'I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony'. And I'll realize just how small minded and petty my 'grievance' is, and nobody will care about the lockers, and why they don't and won't work, because the surface is the thing. Cool. Ahhh. Cool, smooth, slick surface. In which I, and my country, are numero uno. No faults here, nope. Just patience and inscrutable calm. The locker will naturally fix itself, if there is a problem. An anonymous repairman given a secret mission in the dead of night, driving from another city, his assignment only known at the last minute. No relatives so he won't be missed or tell of the shameful indignity.
Presumably then the lockers will work.  |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| Face saving can seem like a cop out to some of those raised in an increasingly outmoded traditional Western cultural ethic of truth-telling, moral responsibility and forgiveness. Or so it seems to me. |
Love the irony. |
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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, Lord Smarmy, rather amusing, isn't it. Pardon me while I refill my pipe and continue with my Milton |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I thought "saving face" meant avoiding embarrassment. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Arthur Fonzerelli wrote: |
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| This misinformation makes it all the more difficult to have current issue-event conversations. |
Oh and the western media isn't biased?? Hmmm, I guess the less evolved Asians need to be enlightened by the rational white people who have superior intelligence and insight??
So what if Asians want to "save face"? Isn't George Bush trying to "save face" in front of the world right now? Much of the world doesn't want a war, but he's trying to promote war to "save face" for all his bellicose war talk...I agree that "saving face" isn't strictly an Asian phenomenon...It's really a human attribute that almost everyone has... |
Fonzie, why do you only see the world in "Bush and White"? |
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Yangkho
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Honam
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| I've seen ��� and �� translated as "face", or "honour" as well. |
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tommynomad
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Location: on the move
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Capt Kirk: Boomerangs, beachcombing, AND Milton?
You should be over in the hot guys thread.
(if you don't mind me saying...."boomerang") |
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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, I'll go over to the hot guys thread. Are there any hot women over there? |
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yangtheman
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:38 am Post subject: Re: Saving and Losing Face |
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| antiamerican wrote: |
Many years ago, when I first came to Asia, I heard this term about the Chinese. From what I remember, it meant that the Chinese would practically lie, or twist the truth, in order not to embarrass themselves, superiors or their families. To look bad in front of others is to lose face. Hence we called it saving face.
In light of Korea, however, I wonder if this applies, or if anyone knows anything about the true meaning of these terms? Do Koreans try to save face? Is this the problem with Korea, and is the above mentioned definition the correct meaning of this term? Moreover, is this the way to describe some Korean behavior, particularly when it comes to right and wrong? An answer to this question might help us all.
Take, for instance, North Korea. We all know(at least some of us,) that Kim Jong-il and his nuclear bomb club have committed a grievous error, or broken the nuclear arms treaty. They've been building nuclear weapons secretely all along, even well before Bush stepped into office. This is no lie.
Yet when speaking about this to the majority of Koreans, all one gets is the cold shoulder. Not only that, but one gets reverse accusations, like the Western media is biased against North Korea and or America started the ball rolling by Bush declaring Kim Jong-il evil and not supplying aid.
But we know from reliable sources, that this isn't so, that North Korea got caught with its hand in the cookie jar, and that Kim Jong-il has lost face. So what do the South Koreans think and do?
Well, that's a mystery to me. They try to shift the blame, or don't talk about it at all, or excuse it in the name of reunification. They try to pretend that no problem exists, that it's really not the North's fault, or that as one student told me, "Why can't North Korea have nuclear weapons? Everyone else does?"
In other words, they try to save face. Or at least this is what I think it's called. But since being in Korea, I haven't heard this term used at all, and wonder if we know what's going on. This could be exactly what North Korea is trying to do, and makes me wonder, who's going to lose face? |
I may be too late to respond this post, but I do believe saving face is a very big deal for Koreans. I happened to write a blog entry about it. You can check it out yourself. |
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