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peppergirl
Joined: 07 Dec 2003
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 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
Let me advance some things that might disturb you and some others:
1. Infertile couples do not have a right to have a child.
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Maybe not, but don't children have a right to have parents? And fertile couples usually prefer to raise their own offspring, making infertile couples the perfect candidates to raise those kids whose own parents can't/won't raise them. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| How is that harm? You are presupposing that adoption > non-adoption. This is not empirically provable. |
I'm presupposing that more adoption is greater (as in better) than non-adoption? I guess I am. The orphans in Korea that aren't adopted have almost no chance to attend university or get a good job or do much in middle-class society. Although not all adoptees have hunky dory existences the vast majority of Korean adoptees that I've met have been through university and have the means to live a middle-class existence. |
But that is a value judgment.
Who are we to say that the chance to attend university is worth not growing up as a member of the culture into which one was born? Or whatever tradeoff is made?
| dogbert wrote: |
| And here's something else: even within the U.S. there are children who go unadopted when U.S. citizens decide to adopt Chinese, Korean, Romanian, and Russian children. These are also "a whole bunch of kids that nobody will adopt". |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? |
You wrote that the harm of restricting intercountry adoption would be that many Korean children would not be adopted (by parents in the U.S.) who otherwise would have been. My contention is that when U.S. parents adopt a Korean, Chinese, Romanian, or Russian child, they usually forego the opportunity of adopting a U.S. child. On the other hand, if their only (or most convenient) option were to adopt a U.S. child, they would do that. Is that difficult to see? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| peppergirl wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
Let me advance some things that might disturb you and some others:
1. Infertile couples do not have a right to have a child.
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Maybe not, but don't children have a right to have parents? And fertile couples usually prefer to raise their own offspring, making infertile couples the perfect candidates to raise those kids whose own parents can't/won't raise them. |
An alternative argument is that children have the right to remain part of the culture into which they are born.
And I disagree strongly that infertile couples are perfect candidates to raise children not their own. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| How is that harm? You are presupposing that adoption > non-adoption. This is not empirically provable. |
I'm presupposing that more adoption is greater (as in better) than non-adoption? I guess I am. The orphans in Korea that aren't adopted have almost no chance to attend university or get a good job or do much in middle-class society. Although not all adoptees have hunky dory existences the vast majority of Korean adoptees that I've met have been through university and have the means to live a middle-class existence. |
But that is a value judgment.
Who are we to say that the chance to attend university is worth not growing up as a member of the culture into which one was born? Or whatever tradeoff is made? |
A. Being born into a culture is a bullshit idea. You grow up in a culture.
B. Kids without parents in Korea are marginalized and don't experience middle class mainstream culture very much anyway.
| dogbert wrote: |
And here's something else: even within the U.S. there are children who go unadopted when U.S. citizens decide to adopt Chinese, Korean, Romanian, and Russian children. These are also "a whole bunch of kids that nobody will adopt".
| the_beaver wrote: |
| What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? |
You wrote that the harm of restricting intercountry adoption would be that many Korean children would not be adopted (by parents in the U.S.) who otherwise would have been. My contention is that when U.S. parents adopt a Korean, Chinese, Romanian, or Russian child, they usually forego the opportunity of adopting a U.S. child. On the other hand, if their only (or most convenient) option were to adopt a U.S. child, they would do that. Is that difficult to see? |
It's only difficult to see because I'm posting with one eye on Dave's and the other on literati (to the detriment of both) -- sorry.
My contention is that they don't necessarily forego the opportunity of adopting a U.S. child -- I think many would forego the adoption process completely because it takes way too long (leastways if the media is right). In any case, a squalling brat is a squalling brat no matter the nation where it was born. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| How is that harm? You are presupposing that adoption > non-adoption. This is not empirically provable. |
I'm presupposing that more adoption is greater (as in better) than non-adoption? I guess I am. The orphans in Korea that aren't adopted have almost no chance to attend university or get a good job or do much in middle-class society. Although not all adoptees have hunky dory existences the vast majority of Korean adoptees that I've met have been through university and have the means to live a middle-class existence. |
But that is a value judgment.
Who are we to say that the chance to attend university is worth not growing up as a member of the culture into which one was born? Or whatever tradeoff is made? |
A. Being born into a culture is a *beep* idea. You grow up in a culture.
B. Kids without parents in Korea are marginalized and don't experience middle class mainstream culture very much anyway. |
Two problems with A.
1. Not all Korean adoptees are infants. A high percentage of them are elementary-school age and older. Korean culture has been inculcated in them already and their adoptive culture will be an overlay.
2. Whether you buy into it or not, there is a great deal of academic literature on the topic of ethnic/cultural disconnect and the fact is that a not-insignificant number of intercountry adoptees have experienced difficulties later in life due to the fact that their ethnicity does not "match" their adoptive culture and does not even match that of their adoptive parents.
In regard to B, again, this is a value judgment and it presupposes many things, such as that the Korean child adopted overseas would not have been adopted within Korea; that the adoptive parents are and will remain "middle class"; that the adopted child will receive the nurturing and support necessary to lead this "middle class" existence; etc. I am not comfortable making these assumptions and casting them in stone.
And to be even more provocative, we can also say that many Korean children having at least one parent also will be marginalized, not be able to attend college, not become a member of the middle class, etc. If we take your position to its logical extreme, we have the rationalization for taking these children from their parent(s) and having them live with adoptive families in Australia, New Zealand, North America, or Western Europe.
| dogbert wrote: |
| And here's something else: even within the U.S. there are children who go unadopted when U.S. citizens decide to adopt Chinese, Korean, Romanian, and Russian children. These are also "a whole bunch of kids that nobody will adopt". |
| the_beaver wrote: |
| What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? |
| dogbert wrote: |
| You wrote that the harm of restricting intercountry adoption would be that many Korean children would not be adopted (by parents in the U.S.) who otherwise would have been. My contention is that when U.S. parents adopt a Korean, Chinese, Romanian, or Russian child, they usually forego the opportunity of adopting a U.S. child. On the other hand, if their only (or most convenient) option were to adopt a U.S. child, they would do that. Is that difficult to see? |
| the_beaver wrote: |
It's only difficult to see because I'm posting with one eye on Dave's and the other on literati (to the detriment of both) -- sorry.
My contention is that they don't necessarily forego the opportunity of adopting a U.S. child -- I think many would forego the adoption process completely because it takes way too long (leastways if the media is right). In any case, a squalling brat is a squalling brat no matter the nation where it was born. |
Does it take so long? I don't believe that it does. I believe that a U.S. child can be adopted by a U.S. couple in far less time than a Korean child can.
I don't expect to be able to change the minds of the adoption advocates on this thread, but I hope I have shown that the arguments put forth by Drakoi should not be dismissed out of hand based only on his inflammatory attitude. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Quote: |
A. Being born into a culture is a *beep* idea. You grow up in a culture.
B. Kids without parents in Korea are marginalized and don't experience middle class mainstream culture very much anyway. |
Two problems with A.
1. Not all Korean adoptees are infants. A high percentage of them are elementary-school age and older. Korean culture has been inculcated in them already and their adoptive culture will be an overlay.
2. Whether you buy into it or not, there is a great deal of academic literature on the topic of ethnic/cultural disconnect and the fact is that a not-insignificant number of intercountry adoptees have experienced difficulties later in life due to the fact that their ethnicity does not "match" their adoptive culture and does not even match that of their adoptive parents. |
1. I've had a friend or two who were adopted around 10 years of age or so. One isn't sure how old he was when his family gave him up and he's not only distant from Korean culture, he hates it.
2. I'm sure you have some studies in the background somewhere to give us the not-insignificant number as a percentage. One truism in life is that some people like to bitch and moan and be that odd one out so they grab whatever they have. There are intra-racial adoptees that have difficulties later in life and many of them blame it on adoption. Race does not define culture (although it does define subcultures in my experience).
| Quote: |
In regard to B, again, this is a value judgment and it presupposes many things, such as that the Korean child adopted overseas would not have been adopted within Korea; that the adoptive parents are and will remain "middle class"; that the adopted child will receive the nurturing and support necessary to lead this "middle class" existence; etc. I am not comfortable making these assumptions and casting them in stone.
And to be even more provocative, we can also say that many Korean children having at least one parent also will be marginalized, not be able to attend college, not become a member of the middle class, etc. If we take your position to its logical extreme, we have the rationalization for taking these children from their parent(s) and having them live with adoptive families in Australia, New Zealand, North America, or Western Europe. |
Value judgement my ass. There are shows on television several times a year about Korean adoptees and how once they're in the system they don't often get out. Once in a while a program will show parents or a parent coming back and finding their kid but it's beyond rare.
It costs money to adopt (as opposed to foster care) so poor families by and large don't adopt. As for the rest of it: you are right that there is no guarantee that the adoptive families will give the nurture and care the kids need but out of the adopted friends and people I've met over the years only one said he had a bad father (and that was more a problem of mediocrity in fatherhood). The rest were content with their families. 100%, no, but I can almost certainly say that the kids in the orphanage are starved for attention and on average get far less of it than adopted kids (I know and I've met a few people who volunteer at orphanages and that's what they say).
Take my position to the logical extreme and take kids from single parents? Why the *beep* would you want to take my position to any extreme and *beep* me sideways if I can even see how it's a 'logical' extreme. To take your position to the extreme kids should not every be adopted at all.
| Quote: |
| Does it take so long? I don't believe that it does. I believe that a U.S. child can be adopted by a U.S. couple in far less time than a Korean child can. |
According to the news shows I've watched over the years it does take a long time because there's a demand for very young, healthy babies. Older ones aren't as marketable.
| Quote: |
| I don't expect to be able to change the minds of the adoption advocates on this thread, but I hope I have shown that the arguments put forth by Drakoi should not be dismissed out of hand based only on his inflammatory attitude. |
I didn't dismiss Drakoi because of his inflammatory attitude. I dismissed him because his ideas suck ass. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
I can only surmise that you and I are defining black-market adoption differently.
However, that's getting somewhat off track.
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How do you arrive at that conclusion? It is entirely on track. There is a black market (definition to be provided shortly) for children. A simple search on Google (type black market adoption and look at a few sites) will show you this.
It is entirely on track because this is a problem the magitude of which would be increased greatly were we to ban international adoption.
As for the definition of "black market" I define it as this. People selling children for cash the undertaking of which is not monitored by any government or private agency whatever.
Do you not agree that the selling and buying of children is a nasty business? And when it is done completely unmonitored, the potential for abuse increases greatly. You would have unscreened applicants buying children. At least with legal adoption the potential for harm to the child is less. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:40 am Post subject: |
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[quote="the_beaver"][quote="dogbert"]
| Quote: |
| AI didn't dismiss Drakoi because of his inflammatory attitude. I dismissed him because his ideas suck ass. |
One of the most sensible statements in this thread. I've had the misfortune to meet Drakoi a few times in arguments. He proceeds as follows. Once you trash his ideas and show why he is wrong, he proceeds to flame and reasonable discourse becomes no longer possible. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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It's difficult to argue against the evidence of unknown and vaguely-recalled television shows and personal impressions based on statistically insignificant, not to mention perceptionally biased, samples.
Such is life. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, what the hell. Just this once I will argue at the level of the adoption advocates, none of whom are likely adoptees themselves, married to adoptees, or adoptive parents. But they sure are the experts from watchin' the teevee!
Here are some examples of why it sometimes would have been better not to have been adopted.
David Polreis, Candace Newmaker, Berta Evers -- all victims of "rebirthing".
Suffer the Children
Google for more if you give a damn. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
It's difficult to argue against the evidence of unknown and vaguely-recalled television shows and personal impressions based on statistically insignificant, not to mention perceptionally biased, samples.
Such is life. |
Where have I used such evidence? Drakoi has though, and you seem to have no problem with that. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
It's difficult to argue against the evidence of unknown and vaguely-recalled television shows and personal impressions based on statistically insignificant, not to mention perceptionally biased, samples.
Such is life. |
Where have I used such evidence? Drakoi has though, and you seem to have no problem with that. |
Did I single anyone out by name? No.
Some of the "evidence" supporting arguments posited in this thread have been:
"I've had a friend or two who were adopted around 10 years of age or so."
and
"There are shows on television several times a year about Korean adoptees and how once they're in the system they don't often get out." |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
It's difficult to argue against the evidence of unknown and vaguely-recalled television shows and personal impressions based on statistically insignificant, not to mention perceptionally biased, samples.
Such is life. |
Where have I used such evidence? Drakoi has though, and you seem to have no problem with that. |
Did I single anyone out by name? No.
Some of the "evidence" supporting arguments posited in this thread have been:
"I've had a friend or two who were adopted around 10 years of age or so."
and
"There are shows on television several times a year about Korean adoptees and how once they're in the system they don't often get out." |
That was my evidence. But I guess you're right. Knowing actual people in the actual situation in question shouldn't count for anything and from now on I intend to write down the date, time, and channel of every show I watch. |
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Honeybee
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
And to be even more provocative, we can also say that many Korean children having at least one parent also will be marginalized, not be able to attend college, not become a member of the middle class, etc. If we take your position to its logical extreme, we have the rationalization for taking these children from their parent(s) and having them live with adoptive families in Australia, New Zealand, North America, or Western Europe.
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Thant's not being provocative, it's being silly |
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Honeybee
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Getting back on topic, Does anyone know what the deal is with the free flights?? |
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