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Free Flights for flying with Orphans
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dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:54 pm Post subject:

the_beaver wrote:

dogbert wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

dogbert wrote:

It's difficult to argue against the evidence of unknown and vaguely-recalled television shows and personal impressions based on statistically insignificant, not to mention perceptionally biased, samples.

Such is life.

Where have I used such evidence? Drakoi has though, and you seem to have no problem with that.

Did I single anyone out by name? No.

Some of the "evidence" supporting arguments posited in this thread have been:

"I've had a friend or two who were adopted around 10 years of age or so."

and

"There are shows on television several times a year about Korean adoptees and how once they're in the system they don't often get out."

That was my evidence. But I guess you're right. Knowing actual people in the actual situation in question shouldn't count for anything and from now on I intend to write down the date, time, and channel of every show I watch.

I live in Korea and know hundreds of Koreans, yet I really couldn't tell you about what it is to be Korean.

Last edited by dogbert on Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject:

Honeybee wrote:

dogbert wrote:

And to be even more provocative, we can also say that many Korean children having at least one parent also will be marginalized, not be able to attend college, not become a member of the middle class, etc. If we take your position to its logical extreme, we have the rationalization for taking these children from their parent(s) and having them live with adoptive families in Australia, New Zealand, North America, or Western Europe.

Thant's not being provocative, it's being silly

Banned sock says what?

Look, if someone is saying that Korean orphans should be sent out of the country because that allows them to go to college (which they allegedly couldn't if they lived in Korea), then why not send overseas for adoption poor, but not orphaned, Korean children so that they, too, can go to college?

Honeybee

Joined: 15 Jan 2004

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject:

Well no one has the right to take a kid away from their family. Thats a lot different from kids who are abandoned by their family.

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:59 am Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

I live in Korea and know hundreds of Koreans, yet I really couldn't tell you about what it is to be Korean.

Going by that logic we have no business posting on this thread at all.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:47 am Post subject:

the_beaver wrote:

dogbert wrote:

I live in Korea and know hundreds of Koreans, yet I really couldn't tell you about what it is to be Korean.

Going by that logic we have no business posting on this thread at all.

Well, that's your call.

But, you know, when giving weight to one individual's anecdotal experience over another, I choose to give more weight to the related experience of an adoptee, or perhaps someone married to an adoptee, rather than a second-hand relation of a teevee show.

Aren't you from the U.S.? Surely you've heard the catchphrase: "It's a black thang -- you wouldn't understand". A similar dynamic underlies this discussion.

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:53 am Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

But, you know, when giving weight to one individual's anecdotal experience over another, I choose to give more weight to the related experience of an adoptee, or perhaps someone married to an adoptee, rather than a second-hand relation of a teevee show.

Try this again: I have (or have had as they've all left Korea) plenty of friends who were adopted-- I believe that falls under related experience of adoptees.

Quote:

Aren't you from the U.S.? Surely you've heard the catchphrase: "It's a black thang -- you wouldn't understand". A similar dynamic underlies this discussion.

That's a bullshit phrase. We wouldn't be able to talk about anything outside of our own personal experience.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:21 pm Post subject:

the_beaver wrote:

dogbert wrote:

Try this again: I have (or have had as they've all left Korea) plenty of friends who were adopted-- I believe that falls under related experience of adoptees.

I understand what you're saying, but surely you can see that perhaps the perspective and understanding of what it is to be an adoptee is somewhat deeper and more complete for the adoptee him/herself than it is for the adoptee's acquaintance.

In this sense, I choose to give more weight to that person's opinion than the one who merely has "plenty of friends" who are adoptees.

To build on my metaphor, imagine the eye-rolling that occurs when one hears the phrase, "But I have plenty of black friends!"

dogbert wrote:

Aren't you from the U.S.? Surely you've heard the catchphrase: "It's a black thang -- you wouldn't understand". A similar dynamic underlies this discussion.

the_beaver wrote:

That's a *beep* phrase. We wouldn't be able to talk about anything outside of our own personal experience.

You are confused on this point -- no one is arguing against your right to speak. I for one am just saying that in regard to this issue, perhaps the opinions of adoptees themselves are more informed than yours. In fact, it's downright insulting for an adoptee to be lectured to about adoption by someone whose experience is completely third-hand.

N.B. By "related experience", I meant from the adoptee him/herself, not as heard and interpreted by an acquaintance.

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

In fact, it's downright insulting for an adoptee to be lectured to about adoption by someone whose experience is completely third-hand.

Probably it is but I hold the same opinion as many adoptees I've known.

Quote:

N.B. By "related experience", I meant from the adoptee him/herself, not as heard and interpreted by an acquaintance.

Then it wouldn't matter what any adoptee has to say because we non-adoptees couldn't interpret it. So, logically, any info that an adoptee gives against adoption is equally inadmissable.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject:

the_beaver wrote:

dogbert wrote:

In fact, it's downright insulting for an adoptee to be lectured to about adoption by someone whose experience is completely third-hand.

Probably it is but I hold the same opinion as many adoptees I've known.

So? That proves nothing.

I've known just as many (if not many more) whose experiences were far more shaded.

And if you agree that it's probably insulting, why do it?

dogbert wrote:

N.B. By "related experience", I meant from the adoptee him/herself, not as heard and interpreted by an acquaintance.

the_beaver wrote:

Then it wouldn't matter what any adoptee has to say because we non-adoptees couldn't interpret it. So, logically, any info that an adoptee gives against adoption is equally inadmissable.

I'm not speaking in absolutes here. However, I'm confident most people can understand that:

a) African-American person has deeper understanding of what it means to be black than does a white person with "plenty of black friends";

b) Korean woman has deeper understanding of what it means to be a Korean woman than does a white man who has slept with "plenty of Korean women";

c) Person who has flown first class has a clearer understanding of what first-class service is than does an economy-class passenger who walks through the first class section on his way off the plane; and

d) an adoptee knows what it is to be an adoptee in a way than a natural-born child never will.

But that's fine -- you think you do. Whatever.

For people who may be interested in a different perspective on adoption (oh, you never bothered to read about "re-birthing", did you?), I would recommend a look at: Bastard Nation

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:08 pm Post subject:

dogbert wrote:

And if you agree that it's probably insulting, why do it?

As near as I can figure you're doing it, too.

Quote:

But that's fine -- you think you do. Whatever.

For *beep*'s sakes. I don't think I know more than adoptees do. I just agreeing with the adoptees who think it's good.

Quote:

For people who may be interested in a different perspective on adoption (oh, you never bothered to read about "re-birthing", did you?), I would recommend a look at: *beep* Nation

bastards.com is just a site about adoptee rights mostly to find their biological parents and see their birth records. It's not anti-adoption.

Drakoi

Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: The World

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:32 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

the_beaver wrote:

dogbert wrote:

Quote:

AI didn't dismiss Drakoi because of his inflammatory attitude. I dismissed him because his ideas suck ass.

One of the most sensible statements in this thread. I've had the misfortune to meet Drakoi a few times in arguments. He proceeds as follows. Once you trash his ideas and show why he is wrong, he proceeds to flame and reasonable discourse becomes no longer possible.

Well, considering that I turned a question about exploiting the adoption system for free flights into a nine page debate about what can be done to reduce adoption...You might want to re-evaluate my strategy. Wink

And if you check the threads you will see that I generally only flame when flamed first. I'm sorry you can't handle arguing with me, but I doubt you would have much to add to any debate anyway.

Last edited by Drakoi on Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:57 pm Post subject:

[quote="Drakoi"][quote="TheUrbanMyth"]

the_beaver wrote:

dogbert wrote:

Quote:

AI didn't dismiss Drakoi because of his inflammatory attitude. I dismissed him because his ideas suck ass.

And if you check the threads you will see that I generally only flame when flamed first. I'm sorry you can't handle arguing with me, but I doubt you would have much to add to any debate anyway.

Learn to attribute properly.

dogbert

Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:20 pm Post subject:

While Korea and China, et al. are eagerly exporting babies and Americans are snapping them up, children born in the United States are also being exported for adoption! Born in America, Adopted Abroad

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