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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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 Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| Maybe we need to separate politically liberal from personally liberal. I'd guess that most of the people that come to Korea are both politically and personally liberal, but most of the people that are liberal in their personal lives don't stay here for very long. |
Is this a joke?   |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
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You know very well I am saying the liberalism of the people is bad and not the people. and what is wrong with being judgmental? I judge liberalism to be wrong. That is my opinion.
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And that makes you look extremely unsophisticated. Kind of like some backwoods reactionary hick that bumbles around blindly and when encountering other humans or ideas reacts with simplistic predictability ei"Same as me, good, different from me, bad, ugh ugh ..." |
It is time for you to grow up and realize that some things are wrong and some things are right. There are not just a range of opinions. That is the way it is in the real world. Life is not relative. |
kangnamdragon: is this a joke? I can't tell.
You can argue using facts and logic or you can pretend conservatives are Dad and liberals are teenagers who just need to grow up and face reality.
Since I became a grown up I ceased to take seriously anyone who believed 'it's all relative'. Conservatives, however, love to believe in this liberal bogeyman who denies values exist. In conservative fantasy land the liberal bogeyman is easy to knock down in argument and vilify.
In the real world liberals realize some things are wrong and some things are right. Most people move on from that to realize that people often disagree about which things are right or wrong, which is something adults are forced to deal with. Conservatives would like to be kids again because it's a lot simpler for kids and you can trust Mum and Dad. |
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agraham
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Location: Daegu, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| matthewwoodford wrote: |
Since I became a grown up I ceased to take seriously anyone who believed 'it's all relative'. Conservatives, however, love to believe in this liberal bogeyman who denies values exist. In conservative fantasy land the liberal bogeyman is easy to knock down in argument and vilify. |
Hello! Moral relativist right here! I'm the liberal boogyman! I separate right from wrong only based on what causes suffering to living creatures and what does not. It's all good! Sleep around! Blaspheme! Piss on the flag!
Just don't kick your dog.
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| In the real world liberals realize some things are wrong and some things are right. Most people move on from that to realize that people often disagree about which things are right or wrong, which is something adults are forced to deal with. Conservatives would like to be kids again because it's a lot simpler for kids and you can trust Mum and Dad. |
La la la. I can't hear you.
I don't wanna grow up, I'm a self-centered kid. |
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Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| I don't think a skeptical opinion of feminism and a conservative view of the world need to walk in lockstep with each other. |
agreed.
that said. i consider myself to be conservative though most conservatives don't see me as such. and, i think Korea could use a good dose of feminism. the men and women here would benefit greatly. |
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Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| so to answer the original poster's question, yes (at least that's the case with me). |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| panthermodern wrote: |
In my experience; such that is it is: Foreigners who stay in Korea for the long term are very individualistic and were most likely the types who did not work and play well with others in the real world.
Or, they are married to a Korean national.
That's my opinion ... |
I work with three "lifers" with almost 20 years here between the three of them. Two are married to Koreans; one falls into the "doesn't play well with others" catagory. I don't know about their private social views but all three are leaning left politicaly. And they're depressing as hell.
It's an interesting idea. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:29 am Post subject: |
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I don't know about their private social views but all three are leaning left politicaly. And they're depressing as hell.
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I agree that "lefties" are often very depressing. But let's not confuse lefites with liberals. |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
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I don't know about their private social views but all three are leaning left politicaly. And they're depressing as hell.
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I agree that "lefties" are often very depressing. But let's not confuse lefites with liberals. |
Lefties 25 and older make me laugh. |
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korian
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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i remember when i was 18 or 19 and a second year arts student who thought he knew it all, my doctor said to me with a condescending smirk after i'd lectured him on the ills of the world 'son, everyone's a socialist at 20 and a capitalist at 40, you mark my words'
at the time i said bah humbug. but now at 31 it seems to be ringing true. it's not so bad that people become more interested in economic gain as they get older coz responsibilities and lives change. but i do think it's sad that capitalistic notions totally overtake social or left leaning views and we tend to forget about the problems that rankled us when we were young idealists.
and back to the OP i think that can be the case with conservatism. as we get older we become more conservative. and a lot of the people here are often leaving the west because they don't like it any more in so many ways.
i think it's more relevant to the ones who aren't in korea just to pay off students loans and find some nooky. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
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I don't know about their private social views but all three are leaning left politicaly. And they're depressing as hell.
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I agree that "lefties" are often very depressing. But let's not confuse lefites with liberals. |
They aren't leftist or socialist or anything. They'd fall into the "I'm voting Democrat" demographic back in the states (They're all American).
They're depressing because they're stuck. They've done all kinds of stuff. They do some TV work, run a recording studio, they've diversified their work (I refuse to call this a career). But underneath you can tell that they are bored shitless. And they are stuck.
Maybe I'm not being fair. I just didn't expect to move half way around the world to find the living dead that you find at home. I moved to get away from that. |
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visviva
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to turn this into a discussion among USA folk, but that seems to be the way it's going.
Oddly, a big part of the reason I enjoy living over here is to get away from the rampant "conservatism" of today's America. It pains me to see people rot their minds and trample their own futures in the self-obsessed greedhead fashion of most Republicans, many Democrats, and just about everyone else. The same mind-rotting future-trampling mentality is at work in Korea as well, naturally. But I don't feel so responsible for it.
This is speaking of "conservatism" in political terms, of course, and considering it as something roughly equivalent to today's right-wing American ideology. The American left is far closer to the original ideals of the country (and thus more truly conservative) than are their revisionist Bush-ite foes, so the terminology is rather misleading.
In terms of daily life, not politics, staying in Korea has actually made me more "conservative" than I was before. On a recent visit to my home country, I found it difficult to understand the obsession of many American females with baring as much flesh as local indecent-exposure laws will allow (no complaints from me, but it just seemed durned odd).  And the young people over there just have no respect for their elders at all.  [/i] |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| visviva wrote: |
Sorry to turn this into a discussion among USA folk, but that seems to be the way it's going.
Oddly, a big part of the reason I enjoy living over here is to get away from the rampant "conservatism" of today's America. |
Ironically, one reason I live here is to get away from the rampant "liberalism" of today's America. |
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Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm glad to be away from the environment where the discourses I was engaged in (culture, education, the arts) were circumvented by talk of war and terrorism. |
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tommynomad
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Location: on the move
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| korian wrote: |
'son, everyone's a socialist at 20 and a capitalist at 40, you mark my words'....
at 31 it seems to be ringing true. it's not so bad that people become more interested in economic gain as they get older coz responsibilities and lives change. but i do think it's sad that capitalistic notions totally overtake social or left leaning views and we tend to forget about the problems that rankled us when we were young idealists |
You seem to imply that people get selfish as they age (i.e.: their own needs outweigh their concerns for the needs of those less fortunate.)
Well, I'm 36, leaning farther left and less interested in capitalism and its 'benefits' with every year I get farther from 25. Back then I was investing (modestly), wore a suit-and-tie to work, was settling down, gladhanded over scotches at the local shark club, and aspired to a house in the city and one by the lake.
Now I live life one day at a time, dress the way I like, spend/give my $ freely ('cause that's what it's for) and aspire to living out of a 33-litre pack for extended periods of time (though i haven't figured out how to do that without relinquishing my snowboard).
When at home I am more active politically, but I watched that process take its toll on my mom, so I'm more careful about letting those passions run away with me. I may no longer be as furious as when I was an "idealist", but that doesn't make me any less sad about the life people live in Burma, Sudan, Tibet or on Canada's reserves. I try to do what I can to make life better for those around me, and use my teacher's role whenever I can to educate about things that really matter to me (eg. I'm in the local environmental activists' club here).
Oh, and my dad's 63 & he makes me look like a Reaganite. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
It is time for you to grow up and realize that some things are wrong and some things are right. There are not just a range of opinions. That is the way it is in the real world. Life is not relative.
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Very FEW things are right and wrong. Many people wish that weren't the case, but most stuff is quite blurry. |
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