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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| cheeky monkey wrote: |
| manlyboy wrote: |
| It's curious that nowhere in the Bible does it say, "Thou shalt be honest". Historically speaking, honesty is one of our younger virtues. |
"thou shalt not bear false witness" is a commandment, right? doesn't that basically mean the same thing? |
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Interpret that addition however you will. Strange that that addition was made though. Why dress up a simple idea like "don't lie" in more complicated words. Probably because it was understood that at times it is necessary and even advantageous to be dishonest. It doesn't say "don't bear false witness to anyone". Is it a stealthy way of saying that it's okay to bs your enemies? I don't know. But that's not my point. My point is that the bible puts a great deal more emphasis on other virtues than it does on honesty.
The fact that Koreans value loyalty more highly than honesty indicates that honesty as we see it is perhaps just a western cultural construct, and not a top-of-the-tree universal value. |
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Keepongoing
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:39 am Post subject: interesting |
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I am sure we can see positive and negative on both sides of the equation.
One thing about unconditonal loyalty is that it could hinder one's personal growth. As I change, my relationships change. In a marriage, if one spouse changes at a greater rate than the other it could cause tension or distancing.
If I remain in some relationships I may never "put away the childish things"????? |
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Len8
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Kyungju
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:28 am Post subject: |
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They have there priorities or whatever there loyalties and connections are, but they daren't challenge the established norm even if they feel deep down inside that they need to sever certain ties. To buck the system would be like commiting social suicide, and no one of Korean descent could live with himself or herself having done that.
That's one of many reasons Korean Culture is called a Face Saving Culture. You have to do things a certain way even when common sense (morality maybe) and a sense of propriety would incline someone to do the same things differently and perhaps more correctly. |
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pecan
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:37 am Post subject: Too funny... |
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The title, "The Geography of Thought : How Asians and Westerners Think Differently...and Why" by Richard E. Nisbett is very insightful and may help you to understand why there are so many misunderstandings in Korea between foreigners and Koreans.
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| in The Geography of Thought people actually think - and even see - the world differently, because of differing ecologies, social structures, philosophies, and educational systems that date back to ancient Greece and China, and that have survived into the modern world. As a result, East Asian thought is "holistic" - drawn to the perceptual field as a whole, and to relations among objects and events within that field. By comparison to Western modes of reasoning, East Asian thought relies far less on categories, or on formal logic: it is fundamentally dialectic, seeking a "middle way" between opposing thoughts. By contrast, Westerners focus on salient objects or people, use attributes to assign them to categories, and apply rules of formal logic to understand their behavior. |
http://www.simonsays.com/content/content.cfm?sid=33&pid=414017&agid=2
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Greeks were independent and engaged in verbal contention and debate in an effort to discover what people took to be the truth. They thought of themselves as individuals with distinctive properties, as units separate from others within the society, and in control of their own destinies. Similarly, Greek philosophy started from the individual object -- the person, the atom, the house -- as the unit of analysis and it dealt with properties of the object. The world was in principle simple and knowable: All one had to do was to understand what an object's distinctive attributes were so as to identify its relevant categories and then apply the pertinent rule to the categories.
Chinese social life was interdependent and it was not liberty but harmony that was the watchword -- the harmony of humans and nature for the Taoists and the harmony of humans with other humans for the Confucians. Similarly, the Way, and not the discovery of truth, was the goal of philosophy. Thought that gave no guidance to action was fruitless. The world was complicated, events were interrelated, and objects (and people) were connected "not as pieces of pie, but as ropes in a net." The Chinese philosopher would see a family with interrelated members where the Greek saw a collection of persons with attributes that were independent of any connections with others. Complexity and interrelation meant for the Chinese that an attempt to understand the object without appreciation of its context was doomed. Under the best of circumstances, control of outcomes was difficult. |
It is too funny to read about how a few of you think that Korea does things incorrectly, when the same could be said about each of you.
Yeah, keep telling yourselves that you are in control!
Nut |
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The Great Toad
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by The Great Toad on Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| funplanet wrote: |
Peppermint makes an interesting point, and I agree....the problem I have seen with this is that a Korean will stay in a relationship with someone (friend, spouse, etc) while that person lies, cheats, and steals continously often leaving said person in a miserable relationship because of the sense of loyalty....
I would prefer letting a relationship go if there was no honesty or integrity on his/her part...loyalty can only go so far...even in a family (but, I suppose, one should do everything possible to bring the other person around) |
Some people in England and Scotland will also stick with their mates no matter how dishonest they are - provided of course that loyalty is reciprocated. Don't tell me this never happens in North America? |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| I'm sure Koreans are pragmatical enough to do business deals with people they haven't known since high school, just as westerners are able to overcome their honesty enough to sell a dodgy product. |
Those are not the reasons. The closed nature of this society makes it inhospitible to foreigners, making it harder to do business here. The lack of honesty creates structures that are corrupt from the top down. This hurts Korean internal business and also discourages investment. Corruption is all pervasive in this country, police, immigration, courts, local and national government. This is the main reason they can never reach thier potential, and certainly never will be the "hub of asia" ...
PS Saw an ad the other day about how beautiful, modern, and freindly Seoul city was. Lol, do they think if they just say it enough times it will be true? |
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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Re; the original post. I've often wondered about the loyalty thing, and overlooking dishonesty. I guess how that applies in a hagwon is you get along with the management well, and if they skimp on pay and perks, for your own sanity you let some things go. Making a DMZ about it seriously gashes the primo numero uno 'loyalty and genuineness/harmony with each other' thing. It takes some time to learn to stand on your head like that and smile.  |
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Real Reality
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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At one time, Koreans used to say that having no money makes a man guilty while having money makes him innocent. Today, materialism has transcended the boundary of law.
by Chung Jae-suk (The writer is a deputy culture news editor of the JoongAng Ilbo.)
JoongAng Daily (September 8, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200409/08/200409082157468709900090109012.html
Transparency International's "Corruption Perceptions Index 2003" lists Korea 10 places lower than what it was last year, meaning the country ranked 50th. The reality is that everything from the central government to regional ones, and the private sector, such as between corporate purchasing and subcontractors, are involved. And the food chain of corruption goes on and on.... According to a recent survey, as many as 90 percent of Korea's youth think they live in a country that's corrupt, and a considerable number of them say they're ready to join the club if the occasions calls for it later in life. Our society has become rotten to the core.
Chosun Ilbo (October 9, 2003)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200310/200310080034.html |
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Swiss James
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
PS Saw an ad the other day about how beautiful, modern, and freindly Seoul city was. Lol, do they think if they just say it enough times it will be true? |
Modern? I'd agree with that
Friendly? I've received a lot more random acts of kindness here than any other major city in the World
Beautiful? Hmm, well some parts are, it's no Strasbourg, but I've seen worse.
Your point about it being confusing and difficult to do business here is true, but I can't say how that would help/hinder it being a 'hub of asia' since I haven't done business in any other asian countries. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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I deal and do business in roughly 11 asian countries, I would say that they all are relativly difficult to do business in, with their own unique and some common difficulties. Korea is no more or less difficult than most . The main problem is the level of English spoken in Korea, compared to most asian countries.
I know I will get jumped on and told I should learn the Korean language, but by that token I (generic business man) would need to learn 11 other asian languages at the same time. For this reason a hub needs to have a relativly high English level to attract companies. Of course if the incentives (tax breaks, grants possible profits etc) are big enough companies will overlook the spoken english level. |
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Swiss James
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I was under the impression that Koreans spoke better English than the Japanese (but not as good as the Thai's, Hong Kong Chinese, or Phillipinos )? |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Modern? I'd agree with that
Friendly? I've received a lot more random acts of kindness here than any other major city in the World
Beautiful? Hmm, well some parts are, it's no Strasbourg, but I've seen worse.
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Seoul is not a modern city in the sense that New York, London, or Tokyo is a modern city. It has a good subway system, and well organised bus system. That's about all you can say for it. In terms of parks, gardens and greenery it's appalling. In terms of rubbish disposal it's appalling. In terms of cosmopolitan food options and range of entertainment for it's size it's appalling. But the most critical factor that makes Seoul not qualify as a modern city is the attitude of the locals. It is far away from being a cosmopolitan foreigner friendly place.
And your acts of kindness don't really make up for the fact that there is no English signage on the busses, or that there are entertainment venues that don't allow foreigners, or that you will be charged a "foreigner price" at Yongsan. |
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edgellskiuk
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Swiss James,
In the business contacts I have with Japan and Korea I would say their levels are similar. On a street level I am not sure as I am normally only in Japan for a couple of hours at a time so have little interaction with Joe Public.
Compared to South East asia and China (Shanghai and Guangzhou) I would say it is lower by a fair amount. Of course this is just my experience and I am sure some will disagree.
Korea is in a strange position as far as becoming a hub. The infrastructure and business enviroment is not as fully developed as Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore. The costs such as land and labour costs etc are approaching those of a fully developed country (in some cases higher due to protectionism bumping certain raw material import costs very high).
If you want a "safe" investment you would invest in the fully developed markets and if you wanted to make the most money and willing to take the risks you would go for the developing countries.
I cannot see how Korea fits in to be honest. I think they thought of the becoming a Hub at the wrong time and should have started the campaign 20 years ago.
Please no-one see this post as me attacking Korea, it is just my opinion. I like Korea a lot and enjoy my life here and hope they do become a hub. |
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Swiss James
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
Seoul is not a modern city in the sense that New York, London, or Tokyo is a modern city. It has a good subway system, and well organised bus system. That's about all you can say for it. In terms of parks, gardens and greenery it's appalling. In terms of rubbish disposal it's appalling. In terms of cosmopolitan food options and range of entertainment for it's size it's appalling. But the most critical factor that makes Seoul not qualify as a modern city is the attitude of the locals. It is far away from being a cosmopolitan foreigner friendly place.
And your acts of kindness don't really make up for the fact that there is no English signage on the busses, or that there are entertainment venues that don't allow foreigners, or that you will be charged a "foreigner price" at Yongsan. |
OK- if you're going to compare it to Tokyo, then you have to acknowledge that in Tokyo they don't even have english signs at most subway stations. Ever tried to get from Narita airport to the city centre? It's an absolute nightmare.
If you're going to compare it to London, then you have to acknowledge that tourists get ripped off left, right and centre putting the foreigner prices at Yongsan in the shade.
If you're going to compare it to New York...well then you're just not being fair because NYC rocks.
Greenery, waste disposal: agreed, agreed. Cosmopolitan food options: getting better all the time but still limited outside a few areas.
I'm not saying Seoul's up there with the best of them, but it can hold it's own against a lot of places- it's friendlier than Paris, cheaper than London, has more english signage than Tokyo, and (for me) it's a better place to drink than Manhattan. |
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