Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Play_Doh]

Can it still be done? How about it?

Me miss kimchi,Chinese take aways just dont cut it..

MOANEY.make the girls moaney...not a typo you dork..who edited that...dumb arse

[Butterfly]

[bellum99]

Everything you just said was wrong...just what you think..

[dutchman]

[Homer]

Actually butterfly, what is happening is similar to what the hakwon industry underwent in 1997 (IMF). The less well run schools are shutting down and the better organized ones are getting stronger.

Overall, the system is improving and the requirements for teachers are changing.

As for hakwons disapearing, this is highly unlikely. just look across the sea at Japan where the equivalent of hakwons still exist and is doing quite well.


Korea is just undegoing growing pains with its ESL industry.

[Ya-ta Boy]

Keep in mind that the economy isn't too hot right now and isn't showing any signs of recovery. Inflation is increasing. The price of oil is still going up and that is forcing everything else to go up. The won is getting stronger vis a vis the US dollar and that may hurt exports. China just raised interest rates, so that will also affect Korea's exports to their largest trading partner. The current government is more interested in a fairer distribution of wealth than in increasing the pie.

As far as I can tell, the starting base pay for teachers in hakwons hasn't gone up any in several years.

I'm expecting heating costs this winter to be significantly higher than last year.

[Son Deureo!]

Let's not forget that the public schools have also started a big drive to bring in native speaking English teachers, so this also has been increasing the demand for English teachers.

No doubt, the Korean economy has taken a beating lately, but this hasn't led to a massive drop in students wanting to learn English. If anything, this seems to increase demand, as people want to improve their qualifications while they look for a job.

To the OP: Come on in, the water's fine.

[Butterfly]

The population is getting smaller, I think we all know that, and the birth rate has been well under 2 children per woman for some some now and currently runs at something astoundingly low like 1.3 (it's saturday morning and I'm hungover, and I can't be bothered to look for the stats).

Teaching in Korea is good for now, but not what it was, and isn't going to get any better. I echo the last poster, prices are going up, corporate salaries are going up, but teachers salaries aren't, and aren't likely to because of reduced demand. I reckon within around 3 years it's actually going to be quite hard to live on an ESL Teacher's salary.

In 1997 the population was larger.

[Play_Doh]

Thanks, all you wise old heads....as you could gather from my name...I was seriously into PJ's...whats your take on that scene these days...
Ive been gone for around 15months now....
and hows the politics?

[Homer]

I don't know butterfly,

When I got here in 1997, the average wage for an ESL gig was 1.1-1.2 million won for 130-140 teaching hours per month spread on a 6 day work week.

Now, seven years later, the avg wage is 2.0-2.1 million for 120.

Seems like a decent increase to me. In fact the wage has almost doubled in 7 years. Know of many fields of work where that happens?

Costs of living have gone up but the wage makes up for it.
Also, savings potential means that you can more then live on an avg ESL salary.

The problem might be that increases from your base salary over years of experience are harder to come by.

Oh and looked up the birthrate, for 2004 its estimated at 1.56 children born/woman. Not super high but not dismal either.

Also, age structure:

0-14 years: 20.4% (male 5,223,344; female 4,681,594)
15-64 years: 71.4% (male 17,625,302; female 17,072,029)
65 years and over: 8.2% (male 1,597,085; female 2,398,821)

Still puts 91.8% of people under the age of 65.

Long term this is an aging population, no doubt about that.

However, the need for English teacher is not going to disapear anytime soon. Also, the wages having nearly doubled in 7 years are stalled now because of bad economics and a slight saturation of offer (teachers).

[trevorcollins]

[Ya-ta Boy]

Some of you are forgetting that the wage increase didn't happen step by step. It happened almost all at one jump soon after the won crashed. Now the salary level seems stuck even though prices are increasing.

It now costs me W10,000 more every time I fill up the car. Compare your heating bill this winter with last year's. Watch the price of fresh vegetables--heating those greenhouses won't be cheap.

I'm not saying the OP shouldn't come. I am saying that monthly savings will be a little smaller than a couple of years ago. Most people will be able to save about 50% of their income.

I don't expect the ESL business to tank. It will continue to evolve just like it has in the past. In the near future some of the students will be going to a Chinese as a Second Language class. The birth rate is one of the lowest in the world. That will gradually affect the market for foreign teachers. These are long-term things. The OP wasn't asking about that.

Korea is still a good option. He can expect about the same number of job openings at the same salary as a year or two ago. Prices are climbing, so savings will be proportionally smaller.

Politically, there are two potential problems as I see it. If the OOPs get to reopen every life from 1910 to now, you can expect some anti-Americanism to develop. (One of the main targets are the families who worked for the Japanese gov't and remained in position after liberation. The blame will be put on the Americans.) The second source of disturbance will be when one of those car bombs in Iraq kills the first Korean soldier or, less likely but possible, some act of terrorism occurs here. Either circumstance could make things uncomfortable for a while. Worse than in 2002? Who knows. (The next presidential election will be in 2007. Anti-Americanism played a significant part in Roh's election.)

[Real Reality]

I tend to agree with Ya-ta Boy.

Economic Downturn Continues
The economic downturn continued in September amid rising economic uncertainties from rising oil prices, won currency appreciation against the American dollar and China's interest rate hike, dimming the prospect of economic recovery next year.
by Kim Hong-su, Chosun Ilbo (October 29, 2004)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410290038.html

Bad Factors Surround Korean Economy
by Jong sik Kong and Chi-Young Shin, Donga.com (October 29, 2004)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004103014828

Think tank is flummoxed over economy
The state-run Korea Development Institute said yesterday that it has not issued a third-quarter report on the nation's economic outlook because of uncertainties arising from the Constitutional Court's ruling against efforts to relocate the nation's capital.
by Hong Byeong-gee, JoongAng Daily (October 29, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200410/28/200410282249076179900090509051.html

As spending emigrates, Seoul's boomtown faces a bust
"The number of students applying to private educational institutions has gone down at least 20 percent from last year," said Kwon Hae-dong, chairman of the association of private educational institutes in Gangnam. "Since the economy is bad and the education conditions in the country have not greatly improved, a lot of parents are trying to move overseas," said Cho Gyu-il, who is in charge of the immigration and overseas study center at Shinhan Bank's Gangnam office.
by Kim Dong-ho and Park Won-gap, JoongAng Daily (September 1, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200409/01/200409010010467139900090509052.html

Concerns rising over Korea's growth potential
Finance Minister Lee Hun-jai and think tanks yesterday expressed strong concerns about Korea's economic growth in the next several years. Lee said that the Korean economy is losing steam as it is quickly turning into an aged society and many companies are still hesitant to invest in the future.
by Sim Sung-tae, Korea Herald (October 27, 2004)
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2004/10/27/200410270032.asp

Leading Business Index Falls for 6th Straight Month
by Lee Hyo-sik, Korea Times (October 29, 2004)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200410/kt2004102915081410440.htm

China's Rate Hike Clouds Korean Economy
by Cho Hyung-kwon, Korea Times (October 29, 2004)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200410/kt2004102915520810220.htm

Korean 'well-being' slogan for some, not others
by David Scofield, Asia Times (October 20, 2004)
http://atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FJ20Dg01.html

Tough times seen prompting more insurance fraud
by Sohn Hae-yong and Lee Min-a, JoongAng Daily (October 28, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200410/27/200410272251459079900090409041.html

Banks are cutting interest rates on savings
by Moon So-young, JoongAng Daily (October 30, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200410/29/200410292255342939900090509052.html

Poor job market leaves little time for idealism
by Kim Seung-hyun and Baek Il-hyun, JoongAng Daily (October 29, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200410/29/200410292252008739900090409041.html

Part-Timers Fall Victim to Labor Exploitation: 70% of Employers Fail to Pay Due Wages
Ministry officials say an increasing number of minors have been forced to work as the economy remains sluggish. Most of the teenage workers are from families suffering financial difficulties and depending on government allowances for the poor, they said.
by Na Jeong-ju, Korea Times (October 29, 2004)
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200410/kt2004102917064010510.htm

Lecturers just scraping by, lawmakers say
Part-time lecturers in Korea belong to the low-income sector and their welfare status is worrisome,...
by Lee Seung-nyung, JoongAng Daily (October 23, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200410/22/200410222244561509900090409041.html

Inflation, lack of jobs mark hardship
by Kim Jong-yoon and Park Sung-ha, JoongAng Daily (October 10, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200410/10/200410102221442179900090509051.html

No jobs here? Let's export some people
by Chun Young-gi, JoongAng Daily (May 27, 2004)
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200405/27/200405272239313509900090109012.html

Korea Gas to raise natural gas prices
Korea Herald (October 29, 2004)
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2004/10/29/200410290021.asp

Government Won on Anti-American, Anti-Elitism Platform
"The reason why this government succeeded in seizing power is because it relied on anti-American and anti-elitism sentiments instead of promoting a clear and realistic view of the future."
by Chae Sung-jin, Chosun Ilbo (October 29, 2004)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410290034.html

Anti-elitism and Anti-intellectualism Strong in Roh Government
by Ji-Won Jun, Donga.com (October 29, 2004)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004103014838

Fewer Imported Pets Due to Economic Recession
by Kim Young-jin, Chosun Ilbo (October 28, 2004)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410280035.html

Foreigners Experience Difficulties in Living in Korea
Overall living conditions, including education, housing, medical care, transportation, immigration, and access to the Internet are pointed to as inconveniences. Not only inconveniences caused by different systems and customs in Korea, but also special discriminating practices,... An official in the International Cooperation Division of Seoul City admitted, "The same complaints regarding visas, transportation, education, and environment are raised every year without being solved, due to the lack of cooperation from government agencies involved and their passive attitudes."
by Jae-Dong Yu and Soo-Jung Shin, Donga.com (July 4, 2004)
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2004070522448

[TheUrbanMyth]

[Real Reality]

TheUrbanMyth,
Are the articles incorrect? Are the quotations from "experts" incorrect? Why don't you refute each one of the articles excerpts I posted? Do you deny the accuracy of the information presented in the articles?

You may benefit from reading the following:

On Sophistical Refutations
by Aristotle
Translated by W. A. Pickard-Cambridge
eBooks@Adelaide (2004)
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/sophistical/

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

Logical fallacies
http://www.troyst.edu/writingcenter/handouts/logical_fallacies.html

Logical fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy