Korean Job Discussion Forums

[matthewwoodford]

So we were reading an article in the advanced class today and came across this sentence:

'I can't help thinking the court had their decision made beforehand.'

I managed to explain to the student what it meant, but how can you explain the grammatical structure?

Another example (couldn't think of one in class):-

'He had his lunch packed ready to go.'

So is it, Subject + Verb + Object + 'Object complement'? What do you call the phrase after the verb? Help!

[weatherman]

It is the past perfect. "had ..... made"

[visviva]

If that had been the past perfect, methinks one would have said: "They had made their decision beforehand." Unless you're writing poetry, you can't just stick phrases between the "have" and the verb like that.

The difference between "had made their decision" and "had their decision made" is mostly in the agent of the action. If they had made their decision, then they were the ones making the decision. If they had their decision made, it is possible that someone else actually made the decision, and they were simply charged with carrying it out. In other words, it's possible that they "had their decision made for them".

If I "have packed" my lunch, then I did the packing. If I have my lunch packed, then someone did the packing; I might have done it, or I might have had my lunch packed for me. "I had my lunch packed" is consistent with "I had my lunch packed by my mother." On the other hand, "I had packed my lunch by my mother" is almost nonsense.

I don't have a thorough grammar of English handy, but I think you can extend this to most transitive verbs which result in a concrete product... thus "I have the answers written down" might mean (and usually would mean) that someone else wrote down the answers.

[matthewwoodford]

Ok...It seems to me that's two wrong trees that have now been barked up. But thanks for the response! I thought no one would reply. Perhaps we can get somewhere now.

It could mean they had their decision made for them by someone else, but it doesn't have to and it doesn't in this case.

Take another example:

"He had his mind made up (and there was no talking to him)."

Or,

"He had his speech prepared, ready to take the podium at a moment's notice."

Can anyone shed more light on this?

[MixtecaMike]

Say, it's English, that's just the way we do it. If they insist, tell 'em it's a bit complicated and you don't have time this semester, possibly it will be discussed next semester.

[matthewwoodford]

Fine, but I want to know the answer!

[J.B. Clamence]

It's not Past Perfect. I'm not sure what the official name is, but we use this structure when someone arranged for something to be done.

SUBJECT + "HAVE" + OBJECT + PAST PARTICIPLE

Usually, we use it for things that we arranged to be done, but didn't do it ourselves:

He had his hair cut yesterday. (He didn't do it, the barber did it).

It's not only used in the past. It can be used for any timeframe:

I'm going to have my car fixed tomorrow. (Future time)

I guess using it to describe something we not only arranged, but actually did ourselves, is a creative usage:

I had everything prepared before the guests arrived. (In this sentence, it could mean that I had people to help me, or I might have done it by myself.)

The best way to explain it is to say that it's used when someone arranges for something to be done. Usually the thing is actually done by someone else, but the arranger could be the one to do it as well. If that's the case, then the focus is not on the person actually doing the thing, but rather on the "arranging", or the decision for that thing to be done.

For example, in your example, it sounds good to say:

The court had their decision made beforehand.
... because the focus of the sentence is not the actual making of the decision (it's not that important what the decision actually was), but rather, the important thing is that the court arranged their decision, or decided to make a decision, beforehand.

[matthewwoodford]

Sounds good.

"He had his car washed (by a car washer)." = He arranged for someone to wash his car.
"He had his car washed, ready to go." = He washed his car in advance, preparatory to some event.

I was thinking that couldn't be it as the sense is different in these sentences, and it is, but when you put it in terms of making arrangements it makes sense. Ta.