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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Mae-rong!  ........ |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:26 am Post subject: |
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rapier wrote:
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| But I'll respond to your edited version as its what other posters will see, (hopefully without involuntarilly being signed out this time before I could press "submit") |
Now isn't that a convenient excuse for being unable to quote any of the garbage you accuse me of saying. I suppose the dog ate your homework too.
| Quote: |
I was pointing out the shadiness of some of the stats you provided
Which ones exactly, and why? if you're referring to prostitution, I suppose I'll have to repeat myself.
The reason there are no official govt statistics for prostitution because it is Illegal in korea. However, there are statistics from surveys carried out by civic/women's groups. Credible enough for you? These are available on the Asian Monitor Research Centre website, an NGO, and the same stats you objected to because they were quoted by "gays with no credibility".
I post the link (again):
http://www.amrc.org.hk/Arch/3309.htm |
These ones:
23% of all Korean women involved in prostitution in 1989.
6359 reported cases of rape
31.4% of households seeing domestic violence
45.5% of Korean high school girls molested by males
And of course, you said yourself on page 2 of this thread:
| Quote: |
| Some of the figures seem excessive, yes, and the sources are not always given. |
Maybe you should listen to the voices in your head a little more often.
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You start comparing rape stats with the West (something I never did in my post), then admit to the West having higher stats. And yet you decide that your opinions and anecdodatal evidence trumps the stats.
Not just my opinions and "anecdotal evidence". I share them with Korean women working with this social problem..read the link again. I think i'll give their opinions more credence than a wehguk who lived an obviously sheltered 5 year holiday here, presumably propping up the bar in Itaewon. |
I read your link again--it doesn't mention stats about rape at all. The article was about prostitution. Are you illiterate?
By the way, I visited Itaewon a total of three times in five years--I didn't travel to Korea to live in a Western ghetto. Is that where your ideas about Koreans have come from?
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the West the yellow pages advertising escort services aren't about finding a companion for friendly conversation. Prostitution is "hidden" everywhere.
Prove it. I want official verified government statistics conducted with impartial international observers using sattelite tracking equipmant. Or, I'll just have to take your opinion as a mass generalisation, with a "Large pinch of salt". |
Let's see--NBC, ABC and CBS. In both local and national reports they've looked at high class hookers (or not so high class ones) who use the phone book to get customers. Or are you going to tell me that their investigative reports don't exist? I really fail to see why you responded to my comment the way you did. I didn't disagree that the barbershops represent prostitution, so why did you give an unrelated, clueless response that you know is false?
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my post didn't even make any positive statements about Korea--a few negative ones in fact.
So you agree with me that korean society is hell? Good. |
So here you are finally noticing how dense it was to accuse me of seeing Korea as a paradise when my original comments were quite the opposite. Congratulations, your light bulb went off rather late, but it did go off.
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| My former girlfriend fled Korea to escape her ex husband who raped, beat and stabbed her. He had regularly used prostitutes while still with her, so I suppose you could say she was fleeing the rampant Korean male habit of cheating on their wives with prostitutes. |
Quite the logic ability you have there.
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However, you did say Korean society=hell. Prove it.
Have you heard of purposeful overstatement to make a point? Can you distinguish literal statements from rhetorical? |
I can distinguish an asinine statement from a statement that implies a move towards a serious discussion. That's more than enough for me. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Catfight! Whoohoo!!! |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| ...which is why researchers here have estimated that the figures... |
I'm just curious if you plan to back any of your figures up with anything other than anecdotal stories you claim to be true because it seems you have ignored the requests of others to back up your claims. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:55 am Post subject: |
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I want people to understand the seriousness of social problems in South korea, and prove that government statistics only show the tip of the iceberg.
I want people to realise that the issues of rape, domestic violence, and prostitution are shrouded in taboo and not treated seriously by authorities.
Thats all.
So, read these reputable sources:
"A questionnaire survey revealed that less than 3% of Korean battered women tried to call the police" (scroll down page to "police attitudes to battered women"). Source: Carnegie council of Ethics and International affairs.
http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/viewMedia.php/prmTemplateID/8/prmID/532
Cthullu questions the rape stats. Ok, here. Official government statistics for rape and sexual violence. Source: Supreme Public Prosecutors Office. (sorry its not ABC).
http://www.moge.go.kr/eng/statistics2.jsp
"Of South Korea's 1.2 million prostitutes, 500.000 are minors" Source: South korean police chief Kim Kang ja. (scroll down page slightly).
http://leewongu.byus.net/zboard/zboard.php?ID=leewongu_8 |
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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:16 am Post subject: |
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[quote
"Of South Korea's 1.2 million prostitutes, 500.000 are minors" Source: South korean police chief Kim Kang ja. (scroll down page slightly).
http://leewongu.byus.net/zboard/zboard.php?ID=leewongu_8[/quote]
Something is wrong big time!!!
1.2 million hookers?!?!? Heck...seoul has 1.2 million alone! One out of every 4 korean woman is a ho!
Go to ANY city in korea...and you'll find plenty of barber shops, singing rooms and room salons! Every street corner...every block just about has a barber shop! |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
So, read these reputable sources:
"A questionnaire survey revealed that less than 3% of Korean battered women tried to call the police" (scroll down page to "police attitudes to battered women"). Source: Carnegie council of Ethics and International affairs. |
A questionaire on a small sampling pool done in 1996 prior to reforms in law and in public opinion about options open to women.
| Quote: |
| "Of South Korea's 1.2 million prostitutes, 500.000 are minors" Source: South korean police chief Kim Kang ja. (scroll down page slightly). |
She said that five years ago, and never actually backed it up with any facts or evidence but instead used it as a rallying call for justifying the lockdown of prostitution.
And the numbers are insane. 500,000 are minors and by minor we mean under 19 Korean age and starting at age 15, she was saying that 40% of Korean female students are involved with prostitution.
While I do agree with shining a spotlight on ills in society that should and can be improved, I do not subscribe to your theory of using unsupported claims and outright lies and claiming they are "reputable sources". |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| Most abortions here are not because of gender selection. They are from couples who are unmarried and got pregnant because Koreans don't use condoms. A few of my friends have gotten women pregnant and paid for abortions. None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls. |
Of course, there are no statistics to back that up. It is quite possible that most abortions here are for purposes of gender selection.
And you are wrong in stating that such would occur only after the couple has one or two girls. Couples who have decided that they wish to bear only one or two children may well turn to gender-biased abortion during the first pregnancy. Were your statement correct, the gender imbalance would not be as severe as it is now, because the married couples in question would ALREADY have had one or two girls. |
When did I say only?
Everyone I know in Korea who has had an abortion had not done it for gender selection. They are young unmarried couples who don't want a baby. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| Most abortions here are not because of gender selection. They are from couples who are unmarried and got pregnant because Koreans don't use condoms. A few of my friends have gotten women pregnant and paid for abortions. None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls. |
Of course, there are no statistics to back that up. It is quite possible that most abortions here are for purposes of gender selection.
And you are wrong in stating that such would occur only after the couple has one or two girls. Couples who have decided that they wish to bear only one or two children may well turn to gender-biased abortion during the first pregnancy. Were your statement correct, the gender imbalance would not be as severe as it is now, because the married couples in question would ALREADY have had one or two girls. |
When did I say only?
Everyone I know in Korea who has had an abortion had not done it for gender selection. They are young unmarried couples who don't want a baby. |
No offense, but can't you read what you wrote and then quoted? "None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls." |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
So, read these reputable sources:
"A questionnaire survey revealed that less than 3% of Korean battered women tried to call the police" (scroll down page to "police attitudes to battered women"). Source: Carnegie council of Ethics and International affairs. |
A questionaire on a small sampling pool done in 1996 prior to reforms in law and in public opinion about options open to women.
| Quote: |
| "Of South Korea's 1.2 million prostitutes, 500.000 are minors" Source: South korean police chief Kim Kang ja. (scroll down page slightly). |
She said that five years ago, and never actually backed it up with any facts or evidence but instead used it as a rallying call for justifying the lockdown of prostitution.
And the numbers are insane. 500,000 are minors and by minor we mean under 19 Korean age and starting at age 15, she was saying that 40% of Korean female students are involved with prostitution.
While I do agree with shining a spotlight on ills in society that should and can be improved, I do not subscribe to your theory of using unsupported claims and outright lies and claiming they are "reputable sources". |
Its very difficult to get comprehensive statistics on rape/ domestic abuse/prostitution in South Korea, which is what makes it interesting. All i can do is post up snippets of surveys, opinions of involved people, and pointers that indicate trends, that at the very least suggest a nationwide pattern- remembering that Korea is a pretty uniform society, socially.
The frustrating thing is that you all want reliable statistics and proof constantly. Due to the closed and taboo nature of these social problems in Korea, accurate figures are simply unavailable. But what we can say with certainty is that prostitution is widespread, although unacknowledged and not subject to government survey: Rape/Domestic abuse is certainly more common than official statistics suggest, due to the fact so much of it goes unreported.
The real indicators though are not some faulty statistics. They are simply using your eyes and ears while you are here... |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| Most abortions here are not because of gender selection. They are from couples who are unmarried and got pregnant because Koreans don't use condoms. A few of my friends have gotten women pregnant and paid for abortions. None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls. |
Of course, there are no statistics to back that up. It is quite possible that most abortions here are for purposes of gender selection.
And you are wrong in stating that such would occur only after the couple has one or two girls. Couples who have decided that they wish to bear only one or two children may well turn to gender-biased abortion during the first pregnancy. Were your statement correct, the gender imbalance would not be as severe as it is now, because the married couples in question would ALREADY have had one or two girls. |
When did I say only?
Everyone I know in Korea who has had an abortion had not done it for gender selection. They are young unmarried couples who don't want a baby. |
No offense, but can't you read what you wrote and then quoted? "None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls." |
The "none" refers to those in Korea I know who have had abortions, not all Koreans. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| Most abortions here are not because of gender selection. They are from couples who are unmarried and got pregnant because Koreans don't use condoms. A few of my friends have gotten women pregnant and paid for abortions. None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls. |
Of course, there are no statistics to back that up. It is quite possible that most abortions here are for purposes of gender selection.
And you are wrong in stating that such would occur only after the couple has one or two girls. Couples who have decided that they wish to bear only one or two children may well turn to gender-biased abortion during the first pregnancy. Were your statement correct, the gender imbalance would not be as severe as it is now, because the married couples in question would ALREADY have had one or two girls. |
When did I say only?
Everyone I know in Korea who has had an abortion had not done it for gender selection. They are young unmarried couples who don't want a baby. |
No offense, but can't you read what you wrote and then quoted? "None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls." |
The "none" refers to those in Korea I know who have had abortions, not all Koreans. |
The only possible way to interpret your passage that makes sense is like this:
"Those [abortions performed for gender selection] would only be after the married couple has one or two girls."
I'm merely saying that you are wrong about that. I'm not disputing your comment about unmarried young women having abortions for other reasons. However, can't you see that after you referred to the young couples, you then make a separate comment about married couples that already have children?
Please clarify. |
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Warfield
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
Location: Asan, S. Korea
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| Well, I just noticed that in my class of 43 grade 3 students there are only sixteen girls. Annecdotal evidence yes, but it's a fairly random sample. |
I always had a similar feeling when I worked with kindy's in 1997. There was always a disproportionately high number of boys. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
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| A western woman could report a guy winking at her to the police and have him sued for a fortune as sexual harrassment. Or she could decide he was no good as a one night stand, sue him for rape, pocket a fortune, and live with an appealing victimhood mentality ever after. Especially if the guy was famous. |
Is this a good thing??  |
Tabloid headlines aside, this isn't really the way things work, at least in the Canadian city where I grew up. Sexual harassment is usually defined as "unwanted sexual attention or contact." In order for something to qualify as "unwanted" (unless it's pretty overtly disgusting), the recipient should take responsibility for making that clear, hopefully in a direct verbal or written statement.
After this has happened, the recipient (I'm trying to avoid being gender specific) has grounds to complain if the behaviour is repeated.
Even if it is, chances are pretty slim that a Canadian woman would file suit, as we're just not a very litigious culture.
Anyway, to get back to the gist of the thread, do you folks know of any current policies on the books in Korea with regards to sexual harassment? |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| Most abortions here are not because of gender selection. They are from couples who are unmarried and got pregnant because Koreans don't use condoms. A few of my friends have gotten women pregnant and paid for abortions. None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls. |
Of course, there are no statistics to back that up. It is quite possible that most abortions here are for purposes of gender selection.
And you are wrong in stating that such would occur only after the couple has one or two girls. Couples who have decided that they wish to bear only one or two children may well turn to gender-biased abortion during the first pregnancy. Were your statement correct, the gender imbalance would not be as severe as it is now, because the married couples in question would ALREADY have had one or two girls. |
When did I say only?
Everyone I know in Korea who has had an abortion had not done it for gender selection. They are young unmarried couples who don't want a baby. |
No offense, but can't you read what you wrote and then quoted? "None were for gender selection. Those would only be after the married couple has one or two girls." |
The "none" refers to those in Korea I know who have had abortions, not all Koreans. |
The only possible way to interpret your passage that makes sense is like this:
"Those [abortions performed for gender selection] would only be after the married couple has one or two girls."
I'm merely saying that you are wrong about that. I'm not disputing your comment about unmarried young women having abortions for other reasons. However, can't you see that after you referred to the young couples, you then make a separate comment about married couples that already have children?
Please clarify. |
To clarify, none of my friends in Korea who had abortions did so for the reasons of gender selection. My friends who did this are not or were not married at the time. Generally, those done for gender selection are done by married couples. However, from what I understand, most abortions are perfomed on the child of unmarried couples.
Please read carefully what I highlighted in red. I apologize if I have been in Korea too long and my English is getting bad. |
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