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| Have you been sexually harassed here? |
| yes |
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41% |
[ 15 ] |
| no |
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41% |
[ 15 ] |
| umm.. |
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16% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 36 |
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Cedar
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Location: In front of my computer, again.
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 Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
What i see here is a lot of competitive women boasting to eachother at all the male attention they get, pretending to suffer under the terrible burden of being pursued.
You hear it all the time.."The guys chat me up constantly in the bar, I can't get any peace..he actually followed me out the bar..he wouldn't stop looking at me.
Another woman: Thats nothing! They trip over themselves when they clap eyes on me!
Yet another woman: Come on now, don't get too full of yourselves..I actually have several stalkers!.
Woman no.4: When you have your own fan club and guys have car accidents as you walk by, come and talk to me."
Does the fact you hang out in bars knowing its the place guys go to meet women, and dress as provocatively as possible, have anything to do with it? if you genuinely wanted to be left alone, you'd dress more conservatively etc.
I suppose the only thing worse than being harrassed by men and having your ego massaged constantly, is too get no attention at all.  |
Rapier, this is the most ridiculous thing you have ever written. As a woman who has had a stalker, I take offense. It's not a laughing matter, it's not something to brag to girlfriends about, it's quite possibly the worst thing that ever happened to me.
I do not either dress provocatively or hang out in bars, I don't brag about men hitting on me. I know I can be sexy, but would (at this stage in my life) not prefer to demonstrate my sexiness to the world. I have nothing to prove, nor any reason to try to get other men to be attracted to me. It's Saturday night, and this is my study break, reading a bit of people mouthing off on the ESL Cafe. And as I write, I am drinking honey water, I am not a person who indulges in alcohol.
Being harassed by a man is not an ego massage. Being whistled at, sure that can be a confirmation of looking good today, but some of the people here describing bosses who try to convince them to put out just cause the boss has money, or being groped on subways, or what have you... this is not an ego massage. When a stranger puts his hands on my body, I get an adrenalin rush simultaneously with a sinking feeling in the pit of my belly- fight or flee? (Ignoring harassment is not my style).
So where does a woman like me (not the most beautiful, though at least I'm nowhere close to fat), who doesn't hang out in bars, doesn't drink, doesn't dress provocatively fit into your theory that if I say I've been harassed I am competing with the other women to prove my attractiveness? What the heck??? I'd like to see you have a stalker (and Korean women CAN do this VERY well) and then come back and say it was cause you are such a stud. I think you'd say it was cause she was a psycho, wouldn't you? |
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Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:00 am Post subject: |
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i can't let this go.
| Hank Scorpio wrote: |
| That's why you're called the weaker sex: delusion. That's also why the greeting card business is a multi-billion dollar industry employing hack poets and cheesemeisters the world over; women really enjoy delusional fairytale BS. |
maybe it's just that i'm more evolved. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Don't you just love how men keep using evolution to excuse their "bad" behaviour?
The male preference for beauty was based in an indication of health, and the ability of the mother to live long enough to give birth and continue the genetic line. Even though life spans are much longer, in many cases, beauty is still a reasonable indication of good health and fertility ( Kate Moss is obviously an exception)
Yeah, I guess women are genetically programmed to ensure they and their children are looked after too- but y here's where the logic goes off the rails. Money didn't play a big role in evolution y'know, and the physical clues that would indicate "good provider" to our distant ancestors didn't include a fat wallet. I'd say that genetic predisposition shows itself in certain physical and personality related preferences instead.
As well, most people would like to consider themselves as something more than slaves to primal, but vestigal instincts, after all, haven't we evolved from that?
Most western women today find the thought of being financially dependent on a man stifling at best and would prefer to be at least equal partners , if not wholly independent. I'd suspect that a lot of the women who post here would feel even more strongly about this, having demonstrated pretty serious independence in stepping away from the traditional female ties of home and family already. |
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rawiri
Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Location: Lovely day for a fire drill.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:19 am Post subject: |
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[quote="peppermint"]Rapier has made it very clear that he has some severe issues with women in the past, and I find it best to simply ignore him.[/quote]
you started the thread...i've met waygook chicks who give me the whole "oh koreans ask if i'm russian"....i'm sorry but a couple of these girls were well overweight and really i'm thinking...."well you would be a pretty fat russian". |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| Money didn't play a big role in evolution y'know, and the physical clues that would indicate "good provider" to our distant ancestors didn't include a fat wallet. |
No, but things like "status" in a tribe did. And what confers status today? By and large, it's money.
| Quote: |
Most western women today find the thought of being financially dependent on a man stifling at best and would prefer to be at least equal partners |
Doubtful. They want to be called "equal partners" but they still want to be supported. Now that doesn't always work out, because today most couples need two incomes to make do. However, you'll notice that most women decidedly want a man that makes more than them.
Were men really to start treating women like they treat each other the women of the west would throw a gigantic hissy fit. You want the benefits of being called an equal partner without the side effects that go along with that. See, you're just reinforcing my point here about the mass delusion of women (and don't get me wrong, men have our own delusions). They want to be equal, but they want to be supported. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Actually dear, evolution doesn't work nearly so well within a tribal setting- it's purely every one for themselves trying to pass on their specific genes. In a purely evolutionary sense other people are nothing more than competition. Surely you've heard the phrase "survial of the fittest"?
Women generally go for taller men across every culture, because taller equals stronger and better able to take down that mammoth and drag it home for dinner.  (the mamoth part is a stretch, but the part about taller and stronger being something women look for isn't) That's a concrete, non subjective sign of a good provider. Status is a lot less clear.
| Quote: |
| Were men really to start treating women like they treat each other the women of the west would throw a gigantic hissy fit. You want the benefits of being called an equal partner without the side effects that go along with that. See, you're just reinforcing my point here about the mass delusion of women (and don't get me wrong, men have our own delusions). They want to be equal, but they want to be supported. |
This paragraph doesn't make a whole lot of sense.Why is it necessary that we be treated like men just because we are equal. Even the most hardcore "feminazis" in the 70's were eventually forced to admit that men and women are different. The thing is that doesn't mean they can't be equal partners.
Oh, and by the way, if you still think treating women like men is a good idea, consider that that would mean that we might have to start treating you like women, as well. .
Please give me some facts to work with and not just your opinion. |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| Actually dear, evolution doesn't work nearly so well within a tribal setting- it's purely every one for themselves trying to pass on their specific genes. In a purely evolutionary sense other people are nothing more than competition. Surely you've heard the phrase "survial of the fittest"? |
Wrong. There's been a lot of evolutionary research on why primates (including humans) gather into tribes/packs, whatever you want to call it, and it's because it increases collective security and makes the passing on of genetics more likely. And if you're going to argue evolutionary theory you'd better understand that "survival of the fittest" was never meant in the sense you're implying and which people often misconstrue it as.
| Quote: |
That's a concrete, non subjective sign of a good provider. Status is a lot less clear. |
Status is a lot more clear, because in social groups if someone has achieved a good amount of status they will most likely be a good provider.
| Quote: |
Even the most hardcore "feminazis" in the 70's were eventually forced to admit that men and women are different. The thing is that doesn't mean they can't be equal partners. |
It does when a woman's biological imperative is to find a provider. If one provides for the other are they in an equal power structure? Not likely.
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Oh, and by the way, if you still think treating women like men is a good idea, consider that that would mean that we might have to start treating you like women, as well. . |
Already happening. What do you call sensitivity training? |
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I_Am_Wrong
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: whatever
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| I_Am_Wrong wrote: |
| I have, however, seen white guys Harass Korean girls lots and it made me sick. |
No, what you actually saw was consentual relationships between Korean women and western men, and that makes your Kyopo blood boil. |
I
I didn't know it was possible for a white dude from Canada whose ancestry is English/German/Scottish to have Gyopo blood....
I do know that I saw the same group of 4 white dudes at a hip hop show hit on every Korean girl by first grabbing them and then having the girl walk away in anger. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I_Am_Wrong wrote: |
| shakuhachi wrote: |
| I_Am_Wrong wrote: |
| I have, however, seen white guys Harass Korean girls lots and it made me sick. |
No, what you actually saw was consentual relationships between Korean women and western men, and that makes your Kyopo blood boil. |
I
I didn't know it was possible for a white dude from Canada whose ancestry is English/German/Scottish to have Gyopo blood....
I do know that I saw the same group of 4 white dudes at a hip hop show hit on every Korean girl by first grabbing them and then having the girl walk away in anger. |
Oh, don't mind The Shak. His notion of a "consentual relationship" has very little resemblance to any legally or socially accepted definition. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'm inclined to agree with Hank on a number of things here regarding marriage - a lot of people get married because, hey, might as well, we've been together for so long! God forbid that I should start again from scratch, no way, better just to get married...
I did have the privilege of seeing my best friend get married in October though and that was quite impressive, especially when he was the one to get all choked up while saying his vows, which was quite impressive.
I'm glad that I've never seen an old guy molest a girl on a bus or somewhere before, or seen a person tormenting a cat. I suspect both things would drive me into a rage though I have thankfully yet to confirm it. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
Don't you just love how men keep using evolution to excuse their "bad" behaviour?
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Ah! Ah! Ah! ** wagging finger ** Watch your generalizations. I neither behave 'badly' nor do I condone or rationalize stalking or harassment. I helped send a Korean landlord to jail for six months for beating his wife.
Keep your prejudices to yourself. 
This thread seems to be drifting away from the core topic: harassment. Attraction and harassment are the same the way surgery and rape are the same. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| peppermint wrote: |
Don't you just love how men keep using evolution to excuse their "bad" behaviour?
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Ah! Ah! Ah! ** wagging finger ** Watch your generalizations. I neither behave 'badly' nor do I condone or rationalize stalking or harassment. I helped send a Korean landlord to jail for six months for beating his wife.
Keep your prejudices to yourself.
This thread seems to be drifting away from the core topic: harassment. Attraction and harassment are the same the way surgery and rape are the same. |
Sorry if you took offense- that particular quote was a light reference to Hank specifically |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough, I see your point. But it's Hank who is using evolution as an excuse for bad behavior, not "men" per se.
If I may offer an opinion, harassment and attractiveness are, to me, two separate issues. Possibly harassment and obsession are separate, but closely related issues as well...my point is, harassment doesn't just occur because a woman looks/dresses attractively or 'provocatively'.
Some university professors have become obsessed with a younger student, simply because they are young. Students have been known to engage in obsessive and harassing behavior towards teachers, simply because they are their teacher. There have been many instances of female bosses or supervisors harassing their male subordinates.
So, fellow gentlemen, it's not a slight on all men to admit that harassment of women happens. Even if it hits us right out of the blue when we find out about it. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Cedar- Once again, I don't condone psychotic harrasment of the type you describe.
Make me a hate figure if you will, but my tongue-in cheek post was a humorous look at how women boast about how much male attention they get.
Men do the same,btw.
Last edited by rapier on Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Even 100 years ago, 5'9 would've been exceptionally tall, never mind the average height when evolution was acting on humanity to select for height.
Maybe stronger was the wrong word, it was late at night and I chose to simplify things somewhat, but taller men were percieved as good providers- and still are. http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/standing.html |
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