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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Real Reality wrote: |
Is Korea like a small town? Is Seoul a small village? |
No, but they oftenseem that way
. As mentioned before you can pretty much divide the population of any city here by ten, and ......
magnify the ignorance towards foreigners by ten as well, in my opinion. |
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Harin
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: Garden of Eden
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| jajdude wrote: |
| Real Reality wrote: |
Is Korea like a small town? Is Seoul a small village? |
No, but they oftenseem that way
. As mentioned before you can pretty much divide the population of any city here by ten, and ......
magnify the ignorance towards foreigners by ten as well, in my opinion. |
Of course, Seoul is a big city, but the racial demographics of the city does not fit into your 'typical' big city profile. You are minority in Seoul. Just accept the fact...it will make you all less bitter. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Harin wrote: |
| jajdude wrote: |
| Real Reality wrote: |
Is Korea like a small town? Is Seoul a small village? |
No, but they oftenseem that way
. As mentioned before you can pretty much divide the population of any city here by ten, and ......
magnify the ignorance towards foreigners by ten as well, in my opinion. |
Of course, Seoul is a big city, but the racial demographics of the city does not fit into your 'typical' big city profile. You are minority in Seoul. Just accept the fact...it will make you all less bitter. |
Do Koreans accept that fact overseas? To Koreans, a search of their baggage at a foreign airport is a major racial incident. |
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Kimchi Cha Cha
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: was Suncheon, now Brisbane
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| captain kirk wrote: |
| A couple of times I referred to myself or other foreign teachers as 'waegookin sonsangnims' and the students got a weird look. I don't know what the connotations of 'waegookin' are, exactly, but it isn't too friendly a term. |
As far as I know waegookin can mean 'foreigner', 'stranger', or 'outsider'; I guess it could have also been used to label a misfit or strange person ( I don't know about the last point, only guessing). Though, given Korea's history of invasion and occupation by outside armies, anyone unknown who rocked up into the village was an outsider and treated with suspicion or outright mistrust, fairly justifiably so given their history. Korean people learnt to associate the word 'waegookin' with an outsider who is not part of the village community and should always be treated with suspicion. So, the word 'waegookin' had definite negative connotations as these people weren't part of the community and could well be potential enemies.
The situation in Korea has changed dramatically in the last 150 years, and the criteria for labelling someone a 'waegookin' may have changed to just anyone who's not Korean but the significance of the word may well remain. |
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Swiss James
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| a Korean friend told me that they don't use waegookin for Japanese people- seems strange. |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| hmmm...so when Koreans or the Japanese use a word that means "not a Korean" to describe someone who is "not a Korean" it is racist or xenophobic, but when Jewish people separate Jewish and gentiles based on bloodline, it is a religious teaching that makes it OK and not xenophobic? |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchi Cha Cha wrote: |
| captain kirk wrote: |
| A couple of times I referred to myself or other foreign teachers as 'waegookin sonsangnims' and the students got a weird look. I don't know what the connotations of 'waegookin' are, exactly, but it isn't too friendly a term. |
As far as I know waegookin can mean 'foreigner', 'stranger', or 'outsider'; I guess it could have also been used to label a misfit or strange person ( I don't know about the last point, only guessing). Though, given Korea's history of invasion and occupation by outside armies, anyone unknown who rocked up into the village was an outsider and treated with suspicion or outright mistrust, fairly justifiably so given their history. Korean people learnt to associate the word 'waegookin' with an outsider who is not part of the village community and should always be treated with suspicion. So, the word 'waegookin' had definite negative connotations as these people weren't part of the community and could well be potential enemies.
The situation in Korea has changed dramatically in the last 150 years, and the criteria for labelling someone a 'waegookin' may have changed to just anyone who's not Korean but the significance of the word may well remain. |
Your conjecture about the etymology of �ܱ��� is way off. �ܱ��� is ������ in chinese characters. It simply means outside country people. I dont see how it could have 'negative connotations'.
Last edited by shakuhachi on Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| Don't take it as a sign of insincere friendship. Sometimes you are referred to that way so people know more quickly of whom they refer when speaking of you. |
Sure, it's a cultural thing, but it doesn't mean it isn't always meant as innocently as you claim. I would never refer to any of my friends as "the black guy" or "the Korean guy", no matter what my intentions may be. With that said, it doesn't really bother me anymore. It's not nearly the worst thing I've been called here. Besides, one learns to accept certain idiosyncracies after having lived here for nearly a decade .
Last edited by Hollywoodaction on Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:06 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Swiss James wrote: |
| a Korean friend told me that they don't use waegookin for Japanese people- seems strange. |
Yes. Chinese and Japanese are accorded by Koreans a level of recognition that entitles them to be referred to by their actual nationality/ethnicity. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| turtlepi1 wrote: |
| hmmm...so when Koreans or the Japanese use a word that means "not a Korean" to describe someone who is "not a Korean" it is racist or xenophobic, but when Jewish people separate Jewish and gentiles based on bloodline, it is a religious teaching that makes it OK and not xenophobic? |
I don't know where that red herring swam in from, but I for one find it similar. |
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Mashimaro
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Koreans refer to others differently to what westerners do... was anybody here under the impression that things would be exactly the same as they were back home?  |
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Kimchi Cha Cha
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: was Suncheon, now Brisbane
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| Kimchi Cha Cha wrote: |
| captain kirk wrote: |
| A couple of times I referred to myself or other foreign teachers as 'waegookin sonsangnims' and the students got a weird look. I don't know what the connotations of 'waegookin' are, exactly, but it isn't too friendly a term. |
As far as I know waegookin can mean 'foreigner', 'stranger', or 'outsider'; I guess it could have also been used to label a misfit or strange person ( I don't know about the last point, only guessing). Though, given Korea's history of invasion and occupation by outside armies, anyone unknown who rocked up into the village was an outsider and treated with suspicion or outright mistrust, fairly justifiably so given their history. Korean people learnt to associate the word 'waegookin' with an outsider who is not part of the village community and should always be treated with suspicion. So, the word 'waegookin' had definite negative connotations as these people weren't part of the community and could well be potential enemies.
The situation in Korea has changed dramatically in the last 150 years, and the criteria for labelling someone a 'waegookin' may have changed to just anyone who's not Korean but the significance of the word may well remain. |
Your conjecture about the etymology of �ܱ��� is way off. �ܱ��� is ������ in chinese characters. It simply means outside country people. I dont see how it could have 'negative connotations'. |
I accept that my conjecture about my etymology of �ܱ��� is way off, with its actual meaning being derived from the Chinese characters ������ meaning 'outside country people'.
However, I definitely still believe that the word could have negative connotations despite the literal meaning being harmless, since during much of Korea's history up until 1945 'outside country people' have often been hostile and aggressive towards Koreans. And, as a result, people would have probably been brought being told to be wary of 'outside country people'. While the words are innocent enough, that doesn't necessary mean that there aren't negative connotations regarding the word. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| The only people that could answer stuff like this are Korean linguistics professors and Kim Sejong, himself. Not armchair �ܱ��� offering speculation, nor our Korean pals or girlfriends that we bounce language questions off of. |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| turtlepi1 wrote: |
| hmmm...so when Koreans or the Japanese use a word that means "not a Korean" to describe someone who is "not a Korean" it is racist or xenophobic, but when Jewish people separate Jewish and gentiles based on bloodline, it is a religious teaching that makes it OK and not xenophobic? |
I don't know where that red herring swam in from, but I for one find it similar. |
Sorry just trying to widen the scope of people's thinking...(Just wanted to point out it wasn't only Asian cultures...But since I lived with a Japanese girl for 6 years, let's pull them into the mix.
(I know that Japanese sometimes complain about there being too many foreigners when they come to Canada. (referring to us Canadians.) 
http://www.japan-101.com/culture/gaijin_japanese_term_foreigners.htm
Gaijin - Japanese Term for Foreigners
Gaijin is a Japanese term for foreigners, often considered insulting or demeaning.
In Japanese, gaijin is composed of two kanji, or Chinese characters, ����. Taken individually, these characters mean outside and person, respectively. Another term, Gaikokujin (��国�� lit: outside country person) is considered to be more politically correct, though notably no more accurate if applied to a naturalized Japanese.
Many Japanese, particularly those outside of Tokyo or Osaka, are not aware that gaijin is considered offensive. Recognizing that it is informal, however, they will often say gaijin-san (lit: Mr. Outsider) in an attempt to indicate more respect. In this context, gaijin may be considered analogous to terms such as visible minority or person of colour used in Western countries.
In other contexts, however, gaijin can be used to emphasize a foreigner's non-belonging, and it is this usage in particular that has given the word its racist stigma. Racism in Japan is not given much thought by Japanese because the foreign population is dwarfed by the native population. In contrast to other nations where racism exists, discrimination is often not based on what you are but rather what you are not (not Japanese), which is why gaijin is considered demeaning; it signifies that you are not one of us.
Even Japanese people who have spent significant time outside of Japan can be seen as outsiders, although not always in a negative manner, and as such their names are often not spelled in the typical Kanji but in Katakana, the character set designated for words of foreign origin. A modern example of this is a Japanese-American female artist Utada Hikaru (����ҫ���) who has spent most of her life in New York. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchi Cha Cha wrote: |
I accept that my conjecture about my etymology of �ܱ��� is way off, with its actual meaning being derived from the Chinese characters ������ meaning 'outside country people'.
However, I definitely still believe that the word could have negative connotations despite the literal meaning being harmless, since during much of Korea's history up until 1945 'outside country people' have often been hostile and aggressive towards Koreans. And, as a result, people would have probably been brought being told to be wary of 'outside country people'. While the words are innocent enough, that doesn't necessary mean that there aren't negative connotations regarding the word. |
Dont be so sure that hostility towards foreigners is the result of foreign aggression. During the period of Chinese hegemony, Koreans looked up to the Chinese and followed the Chinese culture carefully, to the point of taking Chinese names and referring to their lanaguge as a 'dialect'. The Korean king was merely a regional king in the traditional Chinese sense and a vassal of the Emperor. Whilst looking up to the Chinese they also looked down on other Asian countries, seeing the China as No. 1 and Korea as No. 2 , with Japan as No. 3 and so on.
Even after taking on Chinese confucianism as the national ideology and looking up to the Chinese, after Japan beat China in Sino-Japanese war, the Koreans tore down the 'Arc of Gratitude' that they erected to honor the Chinese and put up and independence monument instead, along with indiscriminately murdering Chinese and looting their residences. I think its just the way Koreans are - look at how they are rewriting their history to make the US the baddies in the Korean War.
Bully the weak, worship the strong is the Korean way. |
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