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philinkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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ok this may be the last time ill post now otherwise ill sound like some fortune teller avid when im actually not i just think its perfectly clear that theres enough evidence to say theres something in it.
i meant i didnt think i had psychosomatic problems at the time i obviously did know i had cancer before. true many families do have cancer, 1 in 3 in fact. but quoting psychosomatic problems is unique and when i had my therapy it became clear i did have psychosomatic problems which were worked through and caused physical relief. my therapist believed these problems caused my cancer but that is debatable but the mention of psychosomatic problems is purely unique and also is becoming independent from my parents when i got my first job and the fact that my closeness made it difficult for me to separate. that was nothing id thought of at the time. so i think was purely unique to pick up on
i agree though that many people work with foreign people in their job i guess but how many jobs would you actually specifically say that. in a job in korea you would say you will work with foreign people since you teach them in a job in england you would work with foreign people but would not be worth mentioning. anyway thats secondary my main point is the psychosomatic and me being independent from my parents.
im not sure of my students initial reaction to a fortune teller but i think if he sits down there and what she said is very much to the surprise of a pretty smart guy with a good job then he must know himself she atleast had some kind of intuition.
my friend was Korean, she studied Chinese as her major and wished to go to China to work. She was the one told she would marry a Chinese man.
also, fortune tellers do not always start generally mine also said immediately first words, 'and what instrument do you play' when i answered piano. fair enough this could also be seen as some kind of trick perhaps he had an answer for if i said i hated music i dont know. but i was also told if i carried on helping people the way i had been doing id make plenty on money. at which time id made no reference to my past of field of study or past helpng work id done
loads of it can be crap but i think they have some intuition as to your persona and to possibilities. ive been told many different things lots has been contradictory but some 'clearly' did show some kind of talent and insight
what id add also is my parents had it done recently by a friend of a friend who just happened to visit. this was free also so there was no getting money. they also talked of me being far away and me being in a helping role and my sister would be involved in performance, she is a dancer.
okay so fair enough, that person may just happen to love some power trip. maybe she's a friend who just likes to tell people she can do something when she's a lyer even though she did it for my family for free. i dont know. clearly theres always a skeptics argument for everything but i still dont think theres any way it holds a full explanation. |
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Merlyn
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone has intuition, it is very normal, however the problem with most people's intuition is it can be mistaken. For example, the earth looks flat, but really is not, even though intuition tell us it is. Haven't you ever made a prediction before and got it right?? Are you psychic, or was it a lucky guess. You may be psychic, but who cares if it is only as much as everyone else and that's only as good as chance. I can give you as many predictions, and I won't charge you any money either. And now that we've talked a bit I can even even give you some fairly accurate predictions that might even sound extraordinary in the future. What's more, I don't even have to ask you questions to obtain that information. Unbelievable...
Most psychics obtain some information when the appointment is scheduled, just like most faith healers get attendents to write a description about themselves on a little info card before the session. And yet, when the healer says, is there a man in here with a tumor in the back, he is took off guard completely. Time to wise up. |
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shawner88
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| There's a section in my memoir where I go to the fortune teller in Koje-do. The woman, I swear, also sold bun-dae-gi up the street. |
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Merlyn
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| "also, fortune tellers do not always start generally mine also said immediately first words, 'and what instrument do you play' when i answered piano. fair enough this could also be seen as some kind of trick perhaps he had an answer for if i said i hated music i dont know. " |
Well, actually, if you said "no". A good psychic would probably have said, "I think you're mistaken, I have a feeling you did play music or you do play music currently."
And you would think back, "yeah that's right, I learned to play recorder or tamborine, or the triangle in elementary school" And then you would probably even congratulate the psychic on a job well done. Not only did the psychic tell you something about your past, she/he was even good enough to tell you about something you had even forgotten about.
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Merlyn
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| And also love when people bring up Randi's 1,000,000 prize.... as if every astrologer and psychic in the world knows of Randi. My guess is that 99% of the astrologers and psychics living in Asia have never heard of him and that the numbers remain quite high outside of the U.S. . I'm sure every fraud knows of him though, because they're also the ones trying to make the big money. |
Many people know who Randi is. Many people in Korea have seen the series of shows he's recorded here testing the Korean supermen and recognize his beard, 1 million dollar challenge, etc. Many people know him all over the world from his travels and if they don't, then it is our responsibility to inform them. There is no reason these people should not have to take drug tests just like professional atheletes to see if they're clean and fair.
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| "They start out with totally general stuff"... yep... first thing the psychic said was that I was a 'twin'... pretty general. And love the use of 'they', from someone who probably hasn't been to 'one' before. I would like to say this though... that the korean friend I went to the psychic with, could not speak very good English and I'm not aware of exactly what she said to introduce me. But she was 'surprised' when the fortune teller began the conversation by stating that 'general stuff' that I was a twin. Now the sceptics would say... "oh... she couldn't speak good English... and she must have told the fortune teller that information." This, however, would not explain her 'surprise'... and she wasn't 'dumb'... the explanation the sceptic then has to turn too... because they can't accept anything. |
It is too bad your friend didn't speak better English, even though you may not have done any cross-checking to rule out other explanations anyways, but if the psychic did have no prior information, that would be good evidence for psychic powers. You would also have to check what was said when she scheduled the appointment. But you say your friend's "surprise" is enough to tell you that she didn't give the information in advance and that she wasn't dumb. In response to this, let's not give people too much credit, people aren't that bright when it comes to understanding anything outside their providence, in this case anything that is partly mysterious unless they have the proper training to identify possible challenges. This explains why people can be fooled during magic tricks, that they know, quite well, are not real.
Skeptics "can't accept anything", this is a poor view of skepticism. Skeptics will, in fact, accept anything when the proper cross-checks are utilized to rule out other possible explanations, because they are not foolish. And they are willing to change their hypothesis when better evidence comes around.
Science has proven itself time and time again when compared to intuition. There is no argument which is the stronger way of arriving at the truth, even if that truth is incomplete. |
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philinkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Science has proven itself time and time again when compared to intuition. There is no argument which is the stronger way of arriving at the truth, even if that truth is incomplete. |
that may be true but science is not providing a good enough argument in this case.
my small amount of evidence.
1. I was told I had Psychosomatic problems.. was true no evidence
2. My problems with my family. This was also true.
3. My friend who studied Chinese and wanted to go there and was told they would.
4. My friend who was told about being bad for his gf.
I think the scientific arguments presented here are very narrow and do just undermine intelligence of the people involved. My friend told he was a playboy in front of his gf is no fool. he's a clever bloke with a well paid job. I would think if the science avids here in the exact same situation wouldve believed the same.
also yes true some of these things can be interpreted as general but they actually werent at all. i was told i would work with foreign people, yes very general. if i was to work in a job in england and some of my co workers were asian i wouldnt think this was any evidence but i teach korean students i think that shows some insight.
also the music thing was an insult to me. yes a good psychic couldve come out with something else if i said id hated music in which case i wouldnt have believed it. the fact is i am actually a good pianist so the fact he said this straight away spoke some possibility of intuition to me.
also i was told by 2 people i had and would help lots of people in my life. yes maybe many jobs help people but my past has involved much volunteer counselling work and my future plan has always been to become a psychological counsellor something ive been really really interested in and read non stop about so that also shows some insight to me.
also the problems with my family. yes everyone has problems but mine worked through later were at a deep level and were serious whereas i felt and do feel now that working through them have really changed my life for the better.
science explains many things better than intuition of course it does. what i believe in this situation and the evidence provided says yes, some og these people are clever and have some insight into peoples feelings and their lives
also i dont believe skeptics will always change their view just as the credulous do not. that is not the correct view of skepticism i dont feel and is perhaps an arrogant one. this reminds me of a for and against debate about hypnotism i studied once. with some issues people have a different feeling inside of good and bad, their personality guides them forward. its like a protestant and catholic argueing over abortion, there will never be a solution. neither one will ever change no matter what evidence is provided. i do not believe any scientific argument could affect my opinion here even though i am obviously (would be stupid not to be) a believer in science. I feel perhaps something innate in my character would always make me to a small extent stand on the other side the same way someone who is a skeptic would stand on theres.
im a believer in Psychology. Psychology is not total science since a science can never be made about human behaviour. I believe many good Psychologists would agree with my views and they know about people. We need the combination of science and insight to understand. Science cannot be used to understand the human mind and behaviour so it cannot be used in this sense to totally discredit fortune telling
a quote of someone respected as an excellent Psychologist in Australia who i would regard as an expert on human behaviour said to me when i asked her about the subject 'I think theres something in it but take it with a grain of salt'. I would agree to this completely as a very balanced fair conclusion |
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Merlyn
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, even if you are going to accept this as valid fortune telling, which you have every right to do. Although I still don't think much honest investigating was done. I'm just not sure how you can selectively take the things that seem to have meanings to you and then throw away the things that didn't, and suggest those were off the mark. Wouldn't a real psychic who has some special intuition about yourself, get it all right? |
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Merlyn
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Science cannot be used to understand the human mind and behaviour so it cannot be used in this sense to totally discredit fortune telling |
Science can not discredit fortune telling. It can also not show that there is no such thing as unicorns, or anything else. But it can potentially show that fortune telling is highly probable and it could potentially establish the reality of unicorns.
Surely, there is a lot better evidence that could do this then that presented above, and perhaps, even that could have done it if the right questions and cross-checks were performed at the time. Unfortunately, they weren't, so we'll have to keep looking for better examples. |
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nev
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Location: ch7t
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:57 am Post subject: |
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If the argument for fortune telling and the like was more anything more than anecdotal then I would give it more credence. But it is perpetually stuck in the murky world of second hand accounts and hearsay.
Why not try this: take a hundred well-regarded psychics and a random hundred people. Then get each psychic to give a full recorded reading to each individual. The results - both at the time and the emerging years - would be very revealing. I certainly know what I believe the outcome would be - but I'd be most intrigued to be proved wrong.
Sadly, I doubt most psychics would agree to do this as they know as well as I that it would do no service to their industry. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Ltes see,
He said there is Cancer "in your family". Wow, wouldnt a real psychic say that YOU have cancer? Seems a bit more specific. Everyone probbaly has cancer in their family.
As for the psychosomatic problems. Yeah, those are rare.
nev, you know very well what would happen in that experiment. The rate of correct predictions would be around the rate for pure chance. Im sure regular people would score just as well in such an experiment.
Anyway, I asked a question. Why havent any of these psychihcs just used theor powers to win the Powerball or some other huge lottery? Why did the Psychic Network go out of business? The psychics didnt see bankruptcy coming? |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| phil_walker80 wrote: |
| im not sure of my students initial reaction to a fortune teller but i think if he sits down there and what she said is very much to the surprise of a pretty smart guy with a good job then he must know himself she atleast had some kind of intuition. |
If there's anything I've discovered it's that perfectly intelligent people can and do believe in astrology and fortune telling -- probably not as many as don't, but anyway. . .
As for me, to quote Jim Morrison, I think it's all a load of shit, myself. |
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philinkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Ltes see,
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| He said there is Cancer "in your family". Wow, wouldnt a real psychic say that YOU have cancer? Seems a bit more specific. Everyone probbaly has cancer in their family. |
i did not take this as evidence of fortune telling i thought i made that clear. They said however that I had problems with my family, yes everyone does have problems with their family but i had some serious problems which needed to be dealt with so i feel that gave some evidence of insight
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| As for the psychosomatic problems. Yeah, those are rare. |
yes thats true i agree
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nev, you know very well what would happen in that experiment. The rate of correct predictions would be around the rate for pure chance. Im sure regular people would score just as well in such an experiment. |
i disagree although I cannot prove by evidence although perhaps at some point in the future I will attempt to prove such a thing should i get the optoin in further study. I think many people eg Psychologists who study human behaviour would believe in a psychic realm to some degree
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| Anyway, I asked a question. Why havent any of these psychihcs just used theor powers to win the Powerball or some other huge lottery? Why did the Psychic Network go out of business? The psychics didnt see bankruptcy coming |
yes thats an interesting point. My view is that the Psychics feel something in relation to other people, their character and their possibilities not external objective events
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| Wouldn't a real psychic who has some special intuition about yourself, get it all right? |
i agree to this hence my argument there is something in it to be taken with a grain of salt. ive been told many things which havnt happened but the things that did and have were unique and showed some insight.
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phil_walker80 wrote:
im not sure of my students initial reaction to a fortune teller but i think if he sits down there and what she said is very much to the surprise of a pretty smart guy with a good job then he must know himself she atleast had some kind of intuition.
If there's anything I've discovered it's that perfectly intelligent people can and do believe in astrology and fortune telling -- probably not as many as don't, but anyway. . .
As for me, to quote Jim Morrison, I think it's all a load of *beep*, myself.
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and once again I would say and assume you have never actually had any fortune teller experience yourself and if YOU HAD and were put in this exact same situation then I would imagine there would be a good chance you wouldve responded the same
With regards to a study what I think is that in fact many things would not come true, maybe most things. But what I also think is that there would be ungeneral things picked up on which could not be accounted for by chance. There was an interesting article on this board someone wrote about small things changing and shaping our future.
I believe when I was in Australia and developed a dream of becoming a counsellor and had a helping others past that person and another person my parent spoke to had insight to say I had helped and would help a lot of people in my life. A past had happened and there was a major future possibility and plan. Whether I will pursue that dream now is not certain but still likely.
I believe also that the one I spoke to in Korea did not mention any helping others and actually talked about other types of work but I believe his intuition into me told him I hadnt had good times in England, very true with out any doubt and my best times of my life would be from 21 in Australia, North Asia and other area of Europe. Obviously now Im 24 obviously in Korea and have travelled Australia when I was 21-22.
I believe if a sample of people regarded by the public as good fortune tellers telling others about their past and future would yield significant results to an extent with regards insight into their character and possible futures and I dont think a random population would do as well. Perhaps things in my case such as you have psychosomatic problems, you 'have' helped a lot of people in your life, could be considered as for points maybe. i dont know, difficult.
so ill quote my post a while ago again
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| a quote of someone respected as an excellent Psychologist in Australia who i would regard as an expert on human behaviour said to me when i asked her about the subject 'I think theres something in it but take it with a grain of salt'. I would agree to this completely as a very balanced fair conclusion |
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animalbirdfish
Joined: 04 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't gone and don't intend to do so, which might disqualify me from this thread. Oh well...
My g/f wanted to go together a month or two ago and I politely declined for numerous reasons, namely:
I'm not a believer in predetermination, destiny, etc. and I therefore don't think a fortune teller would be able to know the future or have any inkling about it. The only things he/she could tell me would be good things that may or may not be true or bad things that would simply get into my head and eat away at me. I consider myself an atheist - or at least a very skeptical agnostic - so it just seems intellecutally dishonest for me to go to a fortune teller.
But let's just say that fortune tellers are legit and can foresee something beyond the here and now. Great, but I don't want to know about it. Let me be surprised and just live my life under the delusion that I have a free will and the power to change my future. |
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Merlyn
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Let me tell you all a true story. I've never titled it before, but let's call it Supernatural Roaches in Korea: Fact or Fiction, You decide. When I first moved to Korea about 3 years ago I was very disappointed with my apt. It was small and for the first time in my life, my home was infested by roaches. It wasn't obvious at first, but eventually I would wake up at night and see one scurrying across the dark floor. Or as I was watching TV, I would hear something small fall from the top of my gas range ventilation and then I would see it. But the most disturbing thing happened one specific night.
You see, I would normally sleep with a glass of water next to my bed in case I got thirsty and needed a drink. Actually, at the time, I was just using paper cups. Well this night I awoke because of a small tapping sound not far from my head where my cup was sitting. I decided to take a look, and what did I see, well, it was a roach inside my cup trying to get out. He had presumably climbed up the cup and managed to fall in. I immediately picked up the cup, rushed to the toilet and threw him in.
Shortly there after my apt. reaked of all the bug killer I had sprayed and traps were everywhere, but my bug problem was seeminly over. This was until one night, when I awoke. I was thirsty. I was not using paper cups anymore and instead had a glass next to my bed. The brand of the cup, I forget, but there was a small finger-nail sized sticker on one side. Anyways, I reached over to take a drink in my fairly dark room and as I was drinking I looked down into the cup and saw a small black roach inside. I was startled, to say the least, and threw the water from my cup onto the wall across my room. I hopped out of my bed and turned on the light, so I could quickly find the bugger and kill him, but I couldn't find him. Where did he go? I looked around. There really wasn't any place for him to hide. How did he escape? I had no idea. It was like he just disappeared, vanished into thin air. A supernatural roach in Korea, that could teleport. You know I've read that teleportation was possible, and some people say they can do this. Bugs could, perhaps, too. So the next day I told some people that I work with what had happened that night, and they were disgusted because I had nearly swallowed the roach. But I kind of left out the part about not being able to find it, about it vanishing. I thought people would think I was crazy. I mean I'm a smart guy. How else do you explain it??? LET ME ASK YOU.
Or perhaps, there is no other explanation and the roach simply vanished, not great proof, but weak proof of teleportation just the same. What do you think? |
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Medic
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:03 am Post subject: |
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A lot of past leaders were suposed to have had Gurus they listened to for advice. I've always thought that gurus were fortune tellers who could see into the future. Nancy Regan used a fortune teller for her husbands big and or minor decisions. Englands Tony Blairs wife is a big follower of some pyshic belief system. Who knows how much she influenced him in making major choices and decisions for England.
Stalin had a guru or fortune teller throughout most of the cruel despotic years of his rule.
The Romanovs of course had Rasputin |
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