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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:59 pm Post subject: Leaving your job early... |
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So there is a battle thread going on about people leaving their job early.
I won't point everyone to it but it is buried in a "I need advice" type post. (Like everyone doesn't know the one I mean already...)
Anyway, the "Big Picture" discussion is getting lost in posturing and and a moderate sized flame war. 
I was just wondering what people thought about breaking a contract based on things other than the actual working conditions.
Some ideas:
Family member is sick.
The house SUCKS and no one will help you.
You are home sick.
You have a better offer.
You slept with a student and feel uncomfortable.
You have a stalker that is not associated with the school in any way. (not like the start struck girl kind..more like the serial killer kind)
You want to move to a different city.
In some ways why should you spend time in a job you hate. If you were at home and you hated a job would people question it if you moved on...why is it different here?
The contract. Ah yes...but as someone pointed out the contract isn't a prison, though it is used that way sometimes...
The other thread dealt with a public school (lots of resources...) but what about the small one foreigner hagwon. They really can't operate without the foreigner and especially if they are just starting out, you leaving could be the final blow in an already cash strapped operation...When do your needs outweigh theirs? (Should it always be me first?)
The contract has terms for exit...should they be the only consideration?
Shouldn't the contract be stronger on the specific costs of leaving early if it is such a concern? |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| A school spends a lot of resources to get a teacher. Breaking a contract is unethical. The only good reason I would see would be for health or safety reasons, yours or anothers. Leaving because you don't like the house or city or etc. is not ethical because you chose to work there. It is your responsibility to find out about the area beforehand. If you were lied to, the contract should have been cancelled at the beginning. If you slept with a student? come on! Why should the school be punished because you messed up? Keep it in your pants and be responsible. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I think if you're homesick/have a better offer/ want to move to another city/ housing sucks, as long as you give the school fair notice, what's the fuss?
You slept with a student and regret it-Deal with your mess dumbass!
Sick family member/ stalker- give the school as much notice as you can, and try to help them find a replacement, but if you value safety or family over a contract, I won't give you grief. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Heres my opinion on the issue:
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| Family member is sick. |
How sick? if it is serious, then I can see why someone would break their contract.
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| The house SUCKS and no one will help you. |
Sucks how? Is the roof caving in? Is it roach infested? If the apartment sucks, and you brought it up with your boss, and he still fails to address the issue, then you have a case. If it is unliveable. However, if it is just small and old but you can live there, suck it up.
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| You are home sick. |
OH CMON. We are all adults. Last time I checked, being homesick wasnt an illness. Get over it. What do people expect when they go to a different country anyway?
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| You have a better offer. |
Ooops. Your boss found a guy willong to work for 100 thousand less. Oh well. Out you go. Would you be happy? I bet there would be a few threads on daves about the mean and dirty boss.
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| You slept with a student and feel uncomfortable. |
Tricky. If you slept with a student you have other issues to deal with.
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| You have a stalker that is not associated with the school in any way. (not like the start struck girl kind..more like the serial killer kind) |
Personal safety is #1. This situation warrants the move.
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| You want to move to a different city. |
Kinda like the homesick thing. Its a childish reason to leave a job. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| A school spends a lot of resources to get a teacher. Breaking a contract is unethical. The only good reason I would see would be for health or safety reasons, yours or anothers. Leaving because you don't like the house or city or etc. is not ethical because you chose to work there. It is your responsibility to find out about the area beforehand. If you were lied to, the contract should have been cancelled at the beginning. If you slept with a student? come on! Why should the school be punished because you messed up? Keep it in your pants and be responsible. |
Exactly my point in the other thread. YOU choose the location, no one forces you. Deal with your choices like an adult. Unless you were given the bait and switch (sign to work in Seoul, but tfind out you will work in some hole) there is no reason to move. "Oh I feel homesick" "Oh I want a bigger city"..boo hoo. Suck it up. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO life is too short to be stuck doing stuff that you hate. . Sticking it out at a place that you don't like is just going to drag the place down anyway so it seems counter productive to have a person who doesn't want to be there working there.
If you don't like it give your notice and leave. Short term pain for long term gain. I'm against midnight runners unless the situation warrants it, but as far as I'm concerned if the place really isn't for you no shame in admiting that and moving on.
Far too many teachers are here out of the bizzare sense of chivlary. They tend to be lazy and just generally horrible to be around as they don't pull their weight. Best on all sides to be rid of them. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| crazylemongirl wrote: |
IMHO life is too short to be stuck doing stuff that you hate. . Sticking it out at a place that you don't like is just going to drag the place down anyway so it seems counter productive to have a person who doesn't want to be there working there.
If you don't like it give your notice and leave. Short term pain for long term gain. I'm against midnight runners unless the situation warrants it, but as far as I'm concerned if the place really isn't for you no shame in admiting that and moving on.
Far too many teachers are here out of the bizzare sense of chivlary. They tend to be lazy and just generally horrible to be around as they don't pull their weight. Best on all sides to be rid of them. |
Oh cmon. Life is too short to keep your word? Life isnt that short, first of all. Second of all, we live by our word. Its a year out of your life. Boo hoo. The "life's too short" school of philospohy is whats wrong with a lot of the people for whom #1 is all that counts. Screw the world, life is too short for me not to get what I want. |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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good call CLG!
as long as you give lawful and proper notice to quit your job, an excuse is an excuse. why is it unethical to quit a job lawfully?
doing a runner is a different story....entirely unethical.
yes, i agree with KD and Daechidong to an extent. a person should be responsible for their choices and do everything they can to ensure satisfaction. moving half way around the world is not to be taken lightly.
however, why put up with a raw deal if you don't like it. as long as you learn from it and don't make the same mistake. |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
Oh cmon. Life is too short to keep your word? Life isnt that short, first of all. Second of all, we live by our word. Its a year out of your life. Boo hoo. The "life's too short" school of philospohy is whats wrong with a lot of the people for whom #1 is all that counts. Screw the world, life is too short for me not to get what I want. |
Daechidong,
what is to be said for the first timer who checks the blacklists, checks with other foreigners at the school(who lie), check every possible situation to ensure he is treated fairly.
then he gets here and what was promised turns out to be a fantasy. the old bait and switch. the newb has to live in a moldy, roach infested dump. the people that got him here, lied to him.
i suppose he should suck it up and deal with it?
sometimes it's not possible to cover all the angles. sometimes it's not possible to catch a cheater until it's too late.
someone lies to me and all bets are off. |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Sorry if it seems like I just restarted the thread, but the other one was too flamin' and it all went back to the OP.
This isn't just idol curiosity for me.
I don't fall into any of the categories I actually listed but I'm in a bit of a sticky wicket that I am questioning my current job. I am the sort never to leave a place if I can make a difference, and it is a fledgling hagwon with a great director. I fear if I leave it will be the demise...but maybe I am just giving myself too much credit...
The contract piece of the argument is irrelavent and a red herring...pretend there is no year commitment, etc. and I paid for my own visa run. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| Sometimes the teacher gets burned after giving notice, where doing the run would have been better. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| the eye wrote: |
| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
Oh cmon. Life is too short to keep your word? Life isnt that short, first of all. Second of all, we live by our word. Its a year out of your life. Boo hoo. The "life's too short" school of philospohy is whats wrong with a lot of the people for whom #1 is all that counts. Screw the world, life is too short for me not to get what I want. |
Daechidong,
what is to be said for the first timer who checks the blacklists, checks with other foreigners at the school(who lie), check every possible situation to ensure he is treated fairly.
then he gets here and what was promised turns out to be a fantasy. the old bait and switch. the newb has to live in a moldy, roach infested dump. the people that got him here, lied to him.
i suppose he should suck it up and deal with it?
sometimes it's not possible to cover all the angles. sometimes it's not possible to catch a cheater until it's too late.
someone lies to me and all bets are off. |
You didnt read my posts. Please do. My position is that if the school treats you fairly then leaving early is wrong if its for frivolous reasons. If they are screwing you, screw them right back. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:24 am Post subject: contracts |
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[quote]Shouldn't the contract be stronger on the specific costs of leaving early if it is such a concern
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I haven't broken a contract yet....I have stuck it out through even though I have been tempted to leave.
You cant preset penalties for leaving a contract(its in the labor laws)
One thing I feel is very different here is the way Koreans view the contract....they look at it as guidelines....they put vague clauses in that are blatantly stupid. They put in clauses that are blatantly illegal.
I dont put up with it back home so why would I put up with it here?
Kangnamdragon wrote |
Leaving because you don't like the house or city or etc. is not ethical because you chose to work there.
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Question is it ethical to lie about the accomodations? Is it ethical to lie about the location?
Sometimes teachers arrive here and are stuck in crappy housing, shared accomodations(after being promised private), farther away from work that was stated. The schedule changes at the whim of the school without regards to the foreign teacher. I have often felt like I was treated more like chattal than an employee.
If you sign a contract that pays a whopping 1.8 and the next month you get an offer for 2.2 why should you give up 5,500,000 won? Loyalty? What loyalty? You are only here for a year.
How many of us have resigned at the same school? Blessed few in my experience. Why? Myself it was because I hated the management of the schools by the end of the year. Constant schedule changes, increases in classes, redefining of contracted terms. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
Oh cmon. Life is too short to keep your word? Life isnt that short, first of all. |
Yes, it is. I try and live everyday like it's my last because I never if it's going to be.
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| Second of all, we live by our word. |
Yeah and if you find that things change or that's not working out there is no shame leaving. Speaking as a former employer there is nothing worse than an employee who should move on because the don't like it and doesn't being on the payroll. You can't get rid of them because they aren't doing a terrible job, but they are still negatively effecting productivity and are sucking other moral.
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| Its a year out of your life. Boo hoo. The "life's too short" school of philospohy is whats wrong with a lot of the people for whom #1 is all that counts. Screw the world, life is too short for me not to get what I want. |
And you obviously have a charmed existence if you haven't wroked or lived in the vicinity of the bitter waygookin. They don't want to be here, so they end up making everyone else's existence here suck, 'korea sucks, my job sucks' they don't pull their weight and are just a general sap on everyone.
If they work at a hogwon then they are going to start losing students which is going to affect the bottom line. People who should leave but don't because of the bonus are more selfish than those who realise it isn't working out and leave. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:48 am Post subject: |
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And you obviously have a charmed existence if you haven't wroked or lived in the vicinity of the bitter waygookin. They don't want to be here, so they end up making everyone else's existence here suck, 'korea sucks, my job sucks' they don't pull their weight and are just a general sap on everyone.
If they work at a hogwon then they are going to start losing students which is going to affect the bottom line. People who should leave but don't because of the bonus are more selfish than those who realise it isn't working out and leave. |
Those are my favorite people. I like playing devils advocate and getting them moe bitter:) |
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