|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
fondasoape
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
|
 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Sliver wrote: |
| Do you think that at some stage in L2 acquision interlanguage reaches a point of permament fosilization that cannot be overcome? |
Different individuals fossilize at different places--some never make it past 2 word utterances, others become sufficiently proficient that they are able to handle any situation in L2--even if it is clear that they are L2 speakers (think Kofi Annan when he speaks English).
Very few adults reach native-like proficiency (where the L2 speaker of language X is totally indistinguishable from a native speaker of language X). . . I forget where I saw the figure, but it's less than 5%.
| Sliver wrote: |
| Do you think that interlanguage doesn't influence communicative competency(perceived or real)? |
I'm not sure I understand this question -- I'm not sure how 'influence' enters into the equation. Someone's degree of communicative competence would vary according to the degree to which their interlanguage resembled L2. {When IL resembles L1, CC in L2 = low; When IL resembles L2, CC in L2 = high}
| Sliver wrote: |
| fondasoape wrote: |
If you learned a language without knowing what language it was, it would take roughly the same amount of time to reach one's ceiling regardless of the language being learned.
|
I am uncomfortable with the idea of an L2 reaching a plateau where competency can improve no more (excepting fluency or death). |
See above. Most NNS think they're fully proficient when they really aren't. Perhaps they are able to fulfill all of their linguistic needs and they consider that to be an acceptable level of proficiency (but then, many people who haven't fully defined proficiency confuse proficiency with fluency).
Heck -- my Korean is TERRIBLE, but I'm able to fulfill all of my linguistic needs, but that's only because my linguistic needs for Korean are very low. My linguistic needs for other languages are higher, so my definition of proficiency is higher.
| fondasoape wrote: |
| Perceived similarity plays a bigger role than actual similarity in perceived rate of acquisition. |
| Sliver wrote: |
This could go down in the linguistic annuls as Schroedinger's contribution to the debate. |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
So if I were to study thoroughly an Asian language, supposedly Khmer, Lao, Tagalog, Thai or Vietnamese would be twice as easy as Chinese, Japanase or Korean.
Something strange about that though. Particularly Chinese, as generally Mandarin is well-known to have an easy grammar, and its only 4 tones as opposed to 5,6,8,9 or whatever of Khmer, Thai, Lao, Vietnamese, etc. |
I think the issue with Chinese is that it takes a ridiculously long time and immense amounts of effort to become literate in it. If you were learning it from phoenetic script it would be easier than something like vietnamese, but it just wouldn't be particularly useful, especially not to military types. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
     
I've taken ESL methods classes, but that was 6 years ago.
I had forgotten most of it.
All this talk about theorists and researchers made me feel ashamed of myself.
So I did some quick review and posted what I learned:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?p=444275#444275
There may be important items which I left out, and there may be items which I didn't get exactly right.
I invite all of you to take part this thread, provided that all of you can deport yourselves in a sane and orderly manner. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
taobenli
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've recently been working on a fellowship application so that I can renew the same foreign languages fellowship I have now for my second year of grad school. There is one question which asks me to list the languages I know and what level of proficiency I am at (they don't want numbers 1-10, but word-answers). It's hard for me to figure out what level I'm at. I left Spanish and Russian off the list entirely, although I studied Spanish for two years of high school and Russian for one semester of college. True, I can understand a lot of Spanish (partly because my friend's linguistically brilliant 2-year old speaks Spanish and I hang out with him a lot). But....it's Spanish, so I'm not so proud of that. As for Russian, it's supposed to be a level 3 language, easier than East Asian languages and Arabic, but I had a terrible time with it. I've always been interested in Russian culture, almost as much as East Asian cultures, but nothing "clicked" with me about the Russian language. People were incredulous that I could learn Chinese fairly successfully but not Russian- but I think personality and motivation plays a HUGE role in language learning. Russian grammar drove me nuts.
On this application form I put "advanced beginning" for speaking, reading and writing Korean. I am in my second year of college study now, and I am seeking this fellowship for next year to continue studying Korean. I studied Mandarin for four years of college, and spent four months studying intensively in Beijing. So while for speaking I felt confortable putting "advanced intermediate," for reading and writing I only write "intermediate." Writing is the biggest issue, since I will only really feel advanced in my writing skills once I know simplified characters and a certain number of complex characters. I spent two years out of school and not practicing Chinese, and writing was the first to go.
For Japanese, I put "intermediate" for all levels... I lived there for a year and studied for two, but becoming proficient to a level I would like will take some time...
taobenli |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Wouldn't it be nice to be able to spend two months in each of those countries? No work, just study for nearly a year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
taobenli
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mithridates-
That's why I'm applying for all these fellowships...can't beat getting paid to study! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| And here I was bragging because my job offered a daily Korean class as a fringe benefit! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
J.B. Clamence
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| This group table seems pretty accurate based on second language acquisition. However, for fourth or fifth language acquisition, I believe the levels and hours required change significantly. I can speak a Group 2 language and two Group 3 languages, and I'm working on a Group 4 language now. I wouldn't say that it is easy, but it doesn't seem more difficult than the other languages I have learned -- just different. I believe that the more languages you study, the better you are able to adapt to other languages, and it becomes a lot easier to work within grammar systems that are very different from your L1. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yeah, that's right. I'm doing some Turkish now and I'm helped by Korean grammar, some vocab from Persian, roman letters, etc. All those things put together make it much easier than if I had started from nothing. Languages that would still be super hard would be ones like Hebrew, Georgian, and so on. I have no background in anything related to them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| J.B. Clamence wrote: |
| I believe that the more languages you study, the better you are able to adapt to other languages, and it becomes a lot easier to work within grammar systems that are very different from your L1. |
I'm not so sure that I agree with this. I think it really depends on what relationship and connections there are between the languages you're learning. I learned French (L2) and Spanish (L3) before I started to learn Korean. While I did have some ideas about language learning strategies (focusing on grammar first, reading a lot, etc.) that I wouldn't have known if Korean was my L2, I didn't find my actual knowledge of these languages very helpful at all in learning Korean because it was so vastly different.
On the other hand, I found studying Spanish to be VERY easy because of the common vocabulary and grammar ties with French.
If I were to try studying Chinese or Japanese in the future, I'm sure that would also be much easier thanks to my knowledge of Korean. Especially if I can ever get that damn hanja down.
By the same token, my South African co-worker who speaks 10 languages(mostly European, but also some African languages), is getting nowhere with Korean beyond the survival level. It's just too different from anything she knows.
At any rate, I don't think it's how many languages you've learned, but which ones you know that affect how easily you can learn another language. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Want some hanja tutorials? I like teaching people I know when I have time. I taught Seoulmon the first few hundred he learned and after a few months he was able to learn the rest of them on his own.
I'm honing my hanja teaching skills. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I've got a book called Languages of the World that has some 600 or so languages, a bit on each of them, as well as a graph that has them arranged by family. Languages in the same family will help. Languages from other families will only help if there are a lot of loanwords, like all the Arabic words in Persian and Turkish, even though the three are totally different - Semetic, Indo-European, and Altaic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
J.B. Clamence
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| J.B. Clamence wrote: |
| I believe that the more languages you study, the better you are able to adapt to other languages, and it becomes a lot easier to work within grammar systems that are very different from your L1. |
I'm not so sure that I agree with this. I think it really depends on what relationship and connections there are between the languages you're learning. I learned French (L2) and Spanish (L3) before I started to learn Korean. While I did have some ideas about language learning strategies (focusing on grammar first, reading a lot, etc.) that I wouldn't have known if Korean was my L2, I didn't find my actual knowledge of these languages very helpful at all in learning Korean because it was so vastly different. |
OK, I should have clarified. If you learn many languages which have different grammar systems from each other, it becomes much easier for you to learn another language because you are not tied to assumptions about how a language should be structured (which is one of the biggest handicaps to learning your first foreign language). French and Spanish aren't different enough from English to be much help in this regard. If you learn a couple of Group 3 languages, I believe Korean would come much easier than if you didn't. And I don't think the languages have to actually have similarities to Korean. Just the fact that you have experience studying languages which are much different from your L1 (ie, not French or Spanish) gives you the ability to "think outside the box" when it comes to accepting a very different grammar system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mithridates wrote: |
| I've got a book called Languages of the World that has some 600 or so languages, a bit on each of them, as well as a graph that has them arranged by family. Languages in the same family will help. Languages from other families will only help if there are a lot of loanwords, like all the Arabic words in Persian and Turkish, even though the three are totally different - Semetic, Indo-European, and Altaic. |
I am a bit curious in Khmer, Thai, Vietnamese, Burmese, Mandarin, Japanese..
In which order do you think they would be if listed by easiest to hardest to learn for a native english-speaker? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| J.B. Clamence wrote: |
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| J.B. Clamence wrote: |
| I believe that the more languages you study, the better you are able to adapt to other languages, and it becomes a lot easier to work within grammar systems that are very different from your L1. |
I'm not so sure that I agree with this. I think it really depends on what relationship and connections there are between the languages you're learning. I learned French (L2) and Spanish (L3) before I started to learn Korean. While I did have some ideas about language learning strategies (focusing on grammar first, reading a lot, etc.) that I wouldn't have known if Korean was my L2, I didn't find my actual knowledge of these languages very helpful at all in learning Korean because it was so vastly different. |
OK, I should have clarified. If you learn many languages which have different grammar systems from each other, it becomes much easier for you to learn another language because you are not tied to assumptions about how a language should be structured (which is one of the biggest handicaps to learning your first foreign language). French and Spanish aren't different enough from English to be much help in this regard. If you learn a couple of Group 3 languages, I believe Korean would come much easier than if you didn't. And I don't think the languages have to actually have similarities to Korean. Just the fact that you have experience studying languages which are much different from your L1 (ie, not French or Spanish) gives you the ability to "think outside the box" when it comes to accepting a very different grammar system. |
OK, I'll buy that. Learning different languages definitely does train you to be able to think more abstractly about grammar and idioms. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
