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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| You seem to be implying that an understanding and respect of Korean culture is incomplete without 1: overcoming one's dislike of animal cruelty, 2: overcoming one's view of the domestic dog as "man's best friend", and 3: actually sitting down cross-legged on the floor and eating boshintang. |
Actually, I never said nor implied any of thoise things. Eating dog soup is a personal choice I made at one particuilar moment in my life. I did not feel I was significantly changed by the experience afterward. I've never felt I was morally or ethically different after eating prime rib or my mom's fried chicken ... not even the when the chickens where ones I had seen many times with feathers on them because we raised them in our backyard.
People who choose not to eat eat bosintang for whatever reason are fine in my book. People who want to take the choice away from Korean people - especially Western people who want to take that choice away - and later take the choice away from anyone who wants to eat ANY animal meat ... these people are not okay and I have a big problem with them.
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| The problem with this argument is that those expats who are sitting on the fence regarding cultural sensitivity may fall off on the wrong side after reading your post, regardless of your honesty or good intentions. |
Yeah, but that's a big (and wrong) assumption that I am trying to persuade people to eat dogs. I am not. I am merely expressing my opinion and trying to counter some wrongheadedness that is being offered to us by people with extreme viewpoints who would like to take away the choices of other people if they could. And I'm pointing out that the motivations for such people stem from their own cultural biases and from a reluctsance to try to understand Korean traditons.
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| However, you are implying that you tried the stuff because you developed MORE respect for Korean culture. |
Didn't mean to imply that, and I'm sure I didn't say exactly that. If I need to clarify it, then thanks for pointing out that need.
A lot of Western cousines are all about disguising the natural origins of foods ... ever notice that? I recall being bothered when I first came to Korea because galbi restaurants bring raw meat to the table and put it in fron of you - there's really no way you can avoid the reality that you are about the eat the freshly-dead flesh of a once-living animal. Later I came to respect the fact that korean people do not hide this reality of nature from themselves.
BMLS, several pages ago, I spoke of having grown up on a small farm and eating some of the animals I daily cared for a young child. There was no blindness in my mind when I chowed down on a rabbit I had fed a few days before - the human heart wants to feel love for other creatures but the rational mind knows that some of them will be killed and eaten.
I have not overcome any previous dislike for animal cruelty - I know that some animals will die to give nourishment for myself and those I love. The fact that death involves pain is not news to me.
Some of the best memories of my childhood are of a lovely bitch I named Sneakers, a German Shepard-St Bernard mongrel with white feet who displayed the most incredible loyalty and devotedness any creature that ever existed on this planet, and I returned that sincere emotion by caring for her through a long and sad end by means of a rare kind of canine epilepsy - I have no regrets because both the love she gave me and the love and care I gave her were possibly the most valuable lessons I've yet learned in life's classroom.
Eating a soup made from another dog is quite a separate matter, though, and I have no trouble separating such things. I can look at the raw meat that comes to my table before we barbeque it and I know that it is not my concern any more that it was once a thinking and feeling creature. This is life and that is death - we all get some of of each and both in our lives and in our deaths we all help the rest to continue and thrive in equal measure.
This is the world. We are part of it. This is how we go on.
Last edited by The Bobster on Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
| I'm not sure why you think I should defend Brigitte Bardot's attitudes, since I don't share them. |
Yoiu can't. She's a racist and she hates Koreans. But you know what? I'm guessing a lot of people who agitate at the more extreme ends of the animal rights spectrum are a lot like her.
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| I also think you're way out of line in calling me anti-Korean and racist. |
I would be if I ever did that. It's your vivid imagination hard at work again. Two words : quote function. Four more : learn to use it. Finally, pay attention to these seven words : don't lie about what other people say.
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| I haven't said anything remotely racist or anti-Korean in this thread, and I repeatedly emphasized the importance of looking at this issue in the context of all the terrible things done to animals everywhere rather than singling it out for special condemnation. |
Yeah, but the topic of the thread is Koreans who eat dogs. In the process of the things you mention you have asserted that hamburgers are cannibalism and that public health workers need to accept risks of death by fatal disease in order to meet your personal standards of "humane death." You've made statements that seem to oppose agriculture in general, and the end result of your wishes is that millions of humans woulkd perish of starvation ... unless you have a secret plan you haven't told anyone about.
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| It's bizarre of you to suggest the KAPS Web site has been "hijacked by Westerners." I'm sure there's a phone number on the site somewhere -- if you really think someone has tampered with the content, why don't you speak to Sunnan or Kyenan Kum personally and share your suspicions with them? |
Anyone who has even glanced at the front page of the link you gave us knows that Sunnan and Kyenam did not personally author the English pages themselves - ferchrissakes, they are referrred in the third persdon several times in just a few paragraphs : KAPS and IAKA were founded by Sunnan and Kyenan Kum, both sisters, who were born and raised in Korea. Growing up, they were inspired by their father ...
Who do you think you are kidding here? It is clear immediately when you open the page that they themselves did not write these words, and if I ever do get a chance to sit down with a cup of tea with them I'm going to ask them how much of the stuff written there are things they are even aware of let alone agree with - a lot of it is just wrong, clearly wrong, others are innacurate, and a lot of the rest is written from a point of view that looks entirely Western and not even a little bit Korean.
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| I know I'm not going to convince you of anything but it's very important for others reading this thread to understand that your callous attitudes toward animals are YOURS ALONE, however much you try to project them onto Koreans and defend yourself by throwing around false charges of racism. |
First of all, Brigitte Bardot is a racist and that has been established by the legally appointed courts of her home country. She paid monetary fines for her racist statements and I did not make it up. I provided reputable sources to show that what I said about her is true.
You don't know me well enough to comment accurately on how well I love animals - I personally suspect you don't love chickens very much because you would like to see the ones infected with contagious diseases be able to infect others rather be disposed of in the quickest way possible, and it goes without saying that you don't give a fig for the survival chances of the human beings who have to dispose of them. You wanna talk about callous attitudes ...
I have no reason to defend myself from anything. You accused me of racism long before I displayed the facts of life to us all here about what goes on in the mind of Brigitte Bardot. She is an animal rights activist who has said a lot of similar things that you have said - she hates Korea and Koreans, and I'm probably not wrong in thinking that many others in the same camp share her views of this country.
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| Concern for all animals, ethical vegetarianism, and the work of animal protection groups all over the world are absolutely relevant to this discussion. |
Hey, look, this much is clear : if you START with the premise that eating any animal flesh is morally wrong, then sure, canine chowder will look as bad as any other kind of slaughter. It's a wierd place to discuss vegetarianism in general, but if you do so in THIS discussion, a lot of people will see you as the extremist you are.
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| What is NOT relevant are Brigitte Bardot's political views, Karla Homolka, the bombing of Japan during World War II, or any of the other issues you and others have introduced in an attempt to malign your opponents. Bardot speaks for herself and no one else. |
The Korean women who run the dog shelter clearly seem to have a website authored by people other than themselves, so I'm not entirely confident that they themselves know what is being said in their name. I haven't tried to malign anyone on this thread, not even you - god knows, you've said some silly things about cannibalism and hamburgers that I could really go to town with if I were so inclined ... and it's very understandable why you'd like us to think that a racist like Ms Bardot is not relevant - you'd like us to believe that racism and attitudes about cultural chauvinism have no bearing here. I have shown that they do.
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| I speak for myself and no one else. KAPS speaks for KAPS ... and YOU speak for Bobster. Not for Korea. Please stop pretending otherwise. |
I pretend nothing. I do not speak for Korea, though I will speak against people who want impose their own prejudices in places where it inot appropriate, especially people who come from countries that are not the least bit spotless about the very same things they complain about here.
In the end, I think that kind of behavior makes my own culture look bad. |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Again, you keep making the same erroneous arguments to support your indefensible views. Plenty of organizations have bilingual (or multilingual) Web sites, and not because they've all been "hijacked." Kyenan Kum lives in California and speaks English very well. I'm sure if she weren't happy with the content of the site it would be taken down pretty quickly. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
| Again, you keep making the same erroneous arguments to support your indefensible views. Plenty of organizations have bilingual (or multilingual) Web sites, and not because they've all been "hijacked." Kyenan Kum lives in California and speaks English very well. I'm sure if she weren't happy with the content of the site it would be taken down pretty quickly. |
You claimed I called you anti-Korean and racist, when in fact it was you who said that about me. Yet you claim I am in error and do nothing to show how or where this might be the case. You have accused me of having callous attitudes about animals yet you do nothing to defend the callousness of your own views. You want to deny that there is any anti-Korea or racist bias that underlies the international movement on this issue that appears to be solely centered on this country and this country alone - I have shown by means of reputable journalistic sources that this bias does in fact exist and is a major linchpin behind the energies focused on this issue.
I'm not sure why you persist in calling my views indefensible when in fact I have done more than you or anyone else here to provide rational argument and cite independent sources for much of what I have said - while the only sources yoiu have given are biased activists with political agendas to support.
That's all well and good, but I hope you try to avoid repreating the personal attacks, and if I am in error about something, do feel free to point it out rather than to just say that I am wrong and that I make "zero sense." I continue to find it interesting - no, puzzling - that such venom and personal remarks come from a person such as yourself who claims to be motivated by a caring regard for other people.
Wouldn't that kind of caring regard also translate into a calm respect for other people's opinions and a willingness to engage in meaingful conversation free of rancor and insult? I would think so, but apparently you do not.
Last edited by The Bobster on Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Could someone please help me out here? I'm a bit confused. This problem is not ideological at all, merely logical.
As you may know, at least 70 expats have been caught teaching illegally. There is no evidence (as yet) to indicate that they knew they were breaking Korean law. It seems more likely that they were being lied to by their employers. Nonetheless, certain members of this forum have reacted rather gleefully to their apparent misfortune, and are actually hoping for further punishments.
Killing and eating dogs for food - as far as I understand it - is officially illegal in Korea.
Could somebody please connect the dots? The connection has just escaped me. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Could somebody please connect the dots? The connection has just escaped me. |
I think a lot of people will have touble understanding the connection ... me, I'll be amused to see the first foreigner deported from Korea for eating dog meat. The international press will have a helluva time with that one ...
On the other hand, just about every country in the world has zero official sympathy for non-nationals working outside the legal boundaries of the host country. I think the dudes (and dudettes, as the case may be) in this instance got a raw deal, but expecting that argument to have any impact on the folks who are fanatical extremists on the issue of animals is sort of silly ...
I mean, considering the extra-legal hijinks "animal rights" activists are up to in various places in this world? Come on. |
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Blind Willie
Joined: 05 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| While I agree that death is a tragic thing, your post implies that there is no difference between one way of dying and another. |
Actually, my post was saying that all death is painful, and "humane" kills are more geared towards keeping us from having to deal with the death-throes. Me saying all types of death are the same is simply a creation of your own mind. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
I think a lot of people will have touble understanding the connection ... me, I'll be amused to see the first foreigner deported from Korea for eating dog meat. The international press will have a helluva time with that one ... |
So it's not the legality that matters, it's the ability to get away with the action. A very yangban way of thinking. 
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On the other hand, just about every country in the world has zero official sympathy for non-nationals working outside the legal boundaries of the host country. I think the dudes (and dudettes, as the case may be) in this instance got a raw deal, but expecting that argument to have any impact on the folks who are fanatical extremists on the issue of animals is sort of silly ...
I mean, considering the extra-legal hijinks "animal rights" activists are up to in various places in this world? Come on. |
I have an almost pathological dislike of all forms of extremism, so I'm with you as far as eco-terrorism is concerned. It seems that PETA and ELF are giving humane societies a bad name. My argument is simply that individuals have the right to draw the line regarding their own personal actions and choices.
My problem right now is the obvious double standard of reading excuses for illegal dog beating one minute, then reading someone gloating over the fates of illegal (possibly duped) foreign teachers in the next breath. The hypocrisy is far greater and more morally repugnant than, say, privately choosing to eat bulgoggi but not boshintang.
I am aware that we have similar views regarding the "teacher crackdown" issue. To certain OTHER posters, I have this simple message: if you respect the law, then follow it; otherwise, don't preach. |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Barking Mad, I didn't read the illegal teaching thread since it didn't interest me. However, whether the dog meat industry is legal or illegal here is somewhat ambiguous -- I know KAPS has said it violates the Animal Protection Law, but I suspect it would be very difficult to convince a judge. That's why KAPS wants it clearly spelled out in a new, unambiguous law (just as dogfighting is clearly illegal under Canadian law, for example, and eating dogs and cats is specifically prohibited in Taiwan).
Other animal advocates in Korea have expressed the view that abolishing the dog meat industry may be an unrealistic goal and that the law should also address issues such as the way animals are treated in laboratories and in other meat industries such as pork, chicken, etc. To clear up any misconceptions and/or lies that others have been spreading on this board, however, I have never expressed any opinion here as to what approach should be taken to protect animals in Korea.
Personally I'm uncomfortable with the idea of singling out dogs and cats for special protection under the law, but it's up to Korean animal advocates to work these issues out. The different groups here have quite different approaches, from what I understand, and I honestly don't know which group has the best solution (if any of them do). But I don't think many Koreans who have taken the time to look into these issues would conclude that the law is fine the way it is, just as no decent Canadian would accept the century-old laws in that country. The problem is that there isn't enough awareness on a worldwide level.
One more point -- even though it is asinine to be discussing Brigitte Bardot here, someone brought her into the discussion and referred to her inaccurately as an "animal rights activist." I simply want to point out that if the above quotes are accurate, Bardot doesn't represent animal "rights" at all, although she may support animal welfare. And just because an article has made it into the "mainstream" media, that doesn't mean the reporter has been fair and accurate or that he or she is not presenting the facts in a skewed way. The fact that one of those articles centered on Bardot at all was itself evidence of the reporter's intent to make a mockery of the issue. The other article was slightly more fair, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with its erroneous conclusions. And instead of accusing PETA, the ALF and the ELF of extremism, maybe we should be looking a little more closely at the extremism on the other side. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| So it's not the legality that matters, it's the ability to get away with the action. A very yangban way of thinking. |
None of the customers who sit down in any Korean restaurant to eat traditional cooking are breaking any of the laws of this country by doing so. You are incorrect in this case, sir. |
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canadian_in_korea
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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After reading the posts about the legal aspect of eating dog meat...I thought I would do a search and see if there was any truth behind it...this is what I found...
"The Ministry of Health has failed for 18 years to enforce the 1984 Food and Sanitation Law which declares that dog soup is a repugnant food and therefore illegal to sell." from this website...
http://www.shadcom.iwebland.com/newsupdates.htm
"The Korean Government has failed to enforce its 1984 Ministry of Health law banning dog meat stew, and its 1991 Animal Protection Law banning cruelty to animals. Designating South Korea as a host of World Cup 2002 sends a clear message that the world accepts illegal animal cruelty." from this website...
http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2001/korea.htm
So....is there any truth to this? Does this law really exist?....and has it just disappeared into that "big gray area" where other Korean laws sometimes find themselves? |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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This thread was over a long time ago, but to continue the pain of watching a thread that has out-lived it's usefulness and to use another perhaps inappropriate analogy...
The United States allows Capital Punishment but it doesn't allow you to kill 'em any way you see fit.
Kill (and I guess raise) the dogs in a civilized manner (some would argue killing is not humane and I'm sure it is already covered in the thread.) then eating dog is the same as eating other meat...
Setting the dog on fire to increase the adrenaline in the meat is savage.
(besides, adrenaline ruins a good cut of meat. I want my cow babied to death...) |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:14 am Post subject: |
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To Canadian in Korea, thanks for posting those links. It looks like they're based on information distributed to international groups by KAPS and IAKA, run by Sunnan and Kyenan Kum. So to get the most current information, it would be better to visit their site directly at www.koreananimals.org.
However, there are disagreements as to the legality of the dog meat industry even among Korean animal advocates. I don't have up-to-date information in this matter and it's all very complicated. At one point I heard something to the effect that a pro-animal Korean lawyer was studying the laws to determine how the livestock law bears on the cruelty law. (The text of the cruelty law in English is linked to the KAPS site; apparently the livestock law hasn't been translated.)
Really I think it's clear enough to see that the law is ineffective in protecting animals and needs to be replaced. As I said, it's the Korean animal protection groups that really need to work this out and push for the necessary changes. As foreigners in Korea, we should support them any way we can.
Also, even in Canada and other countries it's very difficult to challenge cruel practices that are part of money-making industries. In Canada it's illegal to "cause unnecessary suffering" but very inhumane practices still go unchallenged. In the United States, I think many states specifically exempt farmed animals from coverage under cruelty laws. There have been a few groundbreaking cases there, but the overall picture is still pretty dismal. |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Just an aside...
There is no law against dog meat in Canada.
You can have it provided the dog is killed in a humane manner.
You can find it in Calgary of all places.... |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| turtlepi1 wrote: |
Just an aside...
There is no law against dog meat in Canada.
You can have it provided the dog is killed in a humane manner.
You can find it in Calgary of all places.... |
That's logical.
It's quite difficult to go around trying to determine which animals are okay to kill for food and which aren't. Drawing the line at killing humans is the only sensible division.
If some people want to ban meat eating altogether, why stop there? Why not ban the eating of all life. Then we can die virtuous. Save the innocent carrots!!! I can't bear their screaming!!!! |
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