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| What country is most openly hostile to " foreigners"? |
| England |
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8% |
[ 6 ] |
| Australia |
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26% |
[ 19 ] |
| United States |
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24% |
[ 18 ] |
| New Zealand |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Canada |
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9% |
[ 7 ] |
| Japan |
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30% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 73 |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't get the first two sites for some reason. I'll try again when I get home.
The organized crime one? Where the hell did it say it has doubled?? Yes, it has risen quite a bit and perhaps the number of organized crime groups has doubled, but that doesn't mean organized crime itself has doubled. It could easily mean it has fragemented into smaller groups.
As for the last two sites, i'm fully aware of that.
Crit nor myself never said South Africa was a nice place to be. While I don't want to speak for Crit, I think that in the next couple decades, South Africa will stablize and have a lot fewer problems. Its economy continues to grow and the economic benefits will continue to spread to more and more of the population. That simply was not possible under the last regime. |
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crito03
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Dogbert you called me a hypocrite based on your inability to properly read a link. No apology...I guess you are less of a man than I gave you credit for.
In regard to your links the first two quote amounts above 360.
As for the other two, they clearly state that their figures are based upon first day death tolls...the massacre went on for days. If I also remember correctly, Rapier stated that this was not a massacre...yet the first four links dogbert provides uses that word to describe it. Maybe you should go back and look at the children and their bloodied broken bodies and come back and try to defnd this shit.
Rapier...how about your argue my points rather than restating your points that I have already discredited. I have clearly made points as to why it is beter in SA now for the black individual as opposed to under apartheid. I asked you a question and you have failed to answer it. Am I to assume hat you would like your famly to live under the situation that blacks were forced to live under.
Smoke and mirrors and smoke and mirrors. If you can't argue a point go bitch about how horrible korean women are or some shit.
Bucheon in this case you can speak for me. I agree with exactly what you said and you seem to understand what I am trying to say. Now if only the other two could argue points rather than play smoke and mirrors that would be great. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crito03 wrote: |
Rapier...how about your argue my points rather than restating your points that I have already discredited. I have clearly made points as to why it is beter in SA now for the black individual as opposed to under apartheid. I asked you a question and you have failed to answer it. Am I to assume hat you would like your famly to live under the situation that blacks were forced to live under.
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"Je me presente", exhibit A:
"My question is this: 'did apartheid ever kill as many Africans as are now being killed by the deliberate neglect and looting of our tax funds by the current, supposedly democratic Mbeki regime?"'
BY Vusile Tshabalala, journalist.
August 2001-- At the start of the year 1900, the number of African South Africans was found to be 3,5-million according to the British colonial government census. By 1954, our African population had soared to 8,5-million -- and by 1990, there were a full 35-million of us -- all carefully managed, closely policed, counted, shunted around in homelands and townships -- and all of us chafing and griping under the suppressive yoke of the Afrikaner Broederbond's rigid racial segregation system.
During apartheid, our population grew apace however because we also had the benefit of the Broers' medical knowledge and their excellent agricultural skills.
Our population growth and our average life expectancy in fact showed us Africans in South Africa to be in better than average health when compared to other Africans on the rest of the continent: in the decades prior to the official policy of apartheid, (which was started in 1948), the average life expectancy of African South Africans was only 38 years.
However, during the last decade of the apartheid era from 1948 to 1994, our average life expectancy had risen to 64 years -- on a par with Europe's average life expectancy. Moreover, our infant death rates had by then also been reduced from 174 to 55 infant deaths per thousand, higher than Europe's, but considerably lower than the rest of the African continent's.
And the African population in South Africa had by then also increased by 50% percent. (source: "a crime against humanity: analysing repression of the Apartheid State", by Max Coleman of the Human Rights Committee).
Deaths due to political violence during apartheid:
Max Coleman's authoritative book analyses all deaths due to political violence from 1948 to 1994 in South Africa and Namibia.
According to the HRC statistics, 21,000 people died in political violence in South Africa during apartheid - of whom 14,000 people died during the six-year transition process from 1990 to 1994.(After black government took power) The book lists the number of incidents, dates, and those involved.
This includes SA Defence Force actions, for instance the 600 deaths at Kassinga in Angola during the war in 1978.
Of those deaths, the vast majority, 92%, have been primarily due to Africans killing Africans -- such as the inter-tribal battles for territory: this book's detailed analyses of the period June 1990 to July 1993 indicates a total of 8580 (92%) of the 9,325 violent deaths during the period June 1990 to July 1993 were caused by Africans killing Africans, or as the news media often calls it, "Black on Black" violence - hostel killings, Inkatha Freedom Party versus ANC killlings, and taxi and turf war violence.
The activities of the Civil Cooperation Bureau as outlined by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, were also included in these figures.
The security forces caused 518 deaths (5.6%) throughout this period.
And again, during the transitional period, the primary causes of deaths were not security forces nor white right-wing violence against blacks, but mainly due to "black-on-black necklace murders", tribal conflict between the ANC-IFP, bombs by the ANC and PAC's military wings in shopping centers, landmines on farm roads, etc.
After apartheid:
The present Aids-HIV epidemic -- against which the Mbeki-regime undertakes no action and still is publicly failing to properly acknowledge -- the World Health Organisation estimates that more than 6-million African South Africans will be dead within the forthcoming decade. And the Mbeki-led ANC regime, which could have undertaken a huge prevention campaign such as Uganda's a long time ago, has done nothing to stave off this terrible death rate.
SA hospitals "becoming places of death" -
In November last year it was being reported in The Star that South African hospitals are becoming places for dying -- instead of healing. In June this year, it was reported that our cemeteries were filling up so rapidly that upright funerals were being contemplated to save space. Still, Aids is not being spoken about at our funerals, and the silence and utterly unscientific public statements about HIV-Aids from Mbeki's continue unabated while our people are dying.
Democratic Alliance spokesman Jack Bloom warned late last year that the 20% rise in deaths over the past four years among patients treated at Johannesburg Hospital could only be blamed on the high crime rate and the very serious decline in patient care. Why is our patient care so poor now, and our crime rate so high? The answer is simple: our public funds are being looted by the ANC hierarchy. And the police seem helpless to stop it.
Tuberculosis funds looted:
On July 10, 2001, the SA health department announced that it was going to stop R6,6-million in annual funding to the SA National Tuberculosis Assocation because of the ongoing looting of its funds and the lavish lifestyles of its (African) executives, who award themselves R400,000 annual salaries and spend R5000 a month on cellphone calls alone... while millions of South African TB patients go untreated and are wasting away of a deadly, but curable disease.
During apartheid, please note that the SANTA executives were seen to be extremely frugal with the governments' funding -- that many thousands of patients were cured annually, and that many doctors and nurses even VOLUNTEERED their services free of charge.
The question is this: "why is this man still CEO of SANTA? Why has he not been fired on the spot?"
Violent deaths from 1994 to 2000:
And the SA Police reports this month -- access their website's statistics at http://www.saps.org.za -- that a total of 174,220 people died violent deaths, from crime-related violence, between 1994 and the year 2000.
So my question is this: "did apartheid ever kill as many Africans as are now being killed by the deliberate neglect and looting of our tax funds by the current, supposedly democratic Mbeki regime?" |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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i think the above link has satisfactorilly proved my points, don't you?:
a)The number of blacks dying violent deaths under apartheid was nothing compared to under the black government that has replaced it:
2)The general standard of living, health, medical care and life expectancy of the average black under apartheid was the best on the African continent and far superior to what black govt. can produce:
3)Apartheid, while not an ideal system, was better than what we have now in south Africa. At least until blacks became familiarised with how to govern responsibly. How long this would have taken is anybodys guess. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Koreans are racist. But not having been many places I don't know how much so. I read about Russia a while ago. Man, sounded like the locals there were full of it! Giving the poor African students a real hard time... they were afraid to go outside! What I think now is that in korea you just feel isolated and ignored mostly. But trying to date Mr. Conservative kim's daughter still causes uplash. Personally i believe there are too many idiots in Korea. |
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crito03
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:38 am Post subject: |
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That a great article, great stats and the like. However what you said was blacks had it better off under apartheid than they do now. I listed the stats from apartheid and asked you, Would you want your family and yourself to live under these circumstances? You can pontificate all you want about death rates and the like. This is all very easy to do as a white individual in SA. I am asking you to envision living under this system as a black individual. You seem like an outdoorsy, freedom loing individual so I highly doubt this, but please correct me if I am wrong.
Reread the stats about the circumstances they lived under and answer the question honestly man. This is the third time I have asked.
BTW we are in agreement about something
At least until blacks became familiarised with how to govern responsibly. How long this would have taken is anybodys guess.
Y
ou will never know how long it will take until you start the process rolling, until their is full universal suffrage which was not possible under apartheid.
Considering the virulent nature of black racism in Trinidad, I'm not surprised.
Please enlighten me. I would love to know more. However I am confused, are you saying that because my place of birth is racist I can't comment on the racism in other countries. Why did you not mention this before when I told you that my nationality was Canadian, cause there is racism in Canada. For that matter racism exist in many forms all over the world. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
What I do know is that the black racism you talk about in trinindad must be something you are well versed about and I would love for you to share your insights with me about my tiny home country and its horrible black racism. (towards who btw, mixed, indian, aboriginal, whites...explain please I would love to know) |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="crito03"]
| Quote: |
| That a great article, great stats and the like. However what you said was blacks had it better off under apartheid than they do now. |
I have no doubt of that.
| Quote: |
| I listed the stats from apartheid and asked you, Would you want your family and yourself to live under these circumstances? You can pontificate all you want about death rates and the like. This is all very easy to do as a white individual in SA. I am asking you to envision living under this system as a black individual. You seem like an outdoorsy, freedom loing individual so I highly doubt this, but please correct me if I am wrong. |
Of course, nobody wants to live under injustice, or ruled by another race in the country of their birth: but they were never going to come up with a better alternative than being forcibly controlled/manipulated into the ways of law and order. The "injustice" you mention ( nothing compared to the greater injustice they've replaced it with) still led to their population explosion and unrivalled prosperity in Africa.
You only have to look north of the border to see the experimental failure of african self-rule. All those states that have been independent from colonial yolk for 40,50 years are a mess, and will never pick themselves up. Its cultural as much as anything else: tribalism, the whole big chief autocracy, the myriad forms of backward, superstitious and irrational thinking ensure Africa will remain a place to avoid.
Do you see people qeueing up applying for residence permits in the Congo? No. Neither do I. Because its a whirlpool of human torment, starvation, famine, war, disease and corruption same as 90-odd % of black africa.
But of course, human nature being what it is, the people will vote in a leader of their own ethnicity, no matter how criminal he inevitably turns out to be. Self-determination is indeed the watchword of the 20th century. But the millions impoverished by black rule have less choices than before: they become more oppressed by their own than by the white man.
*Egypt was a civilisation not of real, black Africa- its race and culture owed more to the middle east than the dark continent.
| Quote: |
At least until blacks became familiarised with how to govern responsibly. How long this would have taken is anybodys guess.
Y
ou will never know how long it will take until you start the process rolling, until their is full universal suffrage which was not possible under apartheid. |
Ideally, I suppose, europeans would have never colonised Africa, and its peoples would still be bands of hunter gatherer warriors, the plains still teeming with game, and their populations checked by and in harmony with nature. A glorious and natural existence, actually. Nothing wrong with that.
But it happened.And it was always going to. And there's no way to turn the clock back.
Traditional African culture, long evolved to fit a vastly different reality than the one the past 200 years has suddenly unveiled, has so far proved unable to adapt to the challenges of the modern era.
Talking of familiarising black Africans with the modern system, plenty of efforts in this direction were made- in S.Africa but also in other former colonial/white ruled states. However my observations are that their culture and deep-rooted way of thinking is far stronger than any education they undertook. Many of today's black governments consist of politicians schooled at Eton or Harvard, with multiple degrees and so forth. It still doesn't change their corrupt "winner takes all" attitude the moment they come to power, their useless policies, etc.
Maybe in several hundred years, they will have evolved/established corrective and truly democratic, advanced traditions of government, the same as Europes ancient nations gradually came to do. But I fear that the hurried granting of power may have wrecked their chances beyond repair, throwing the continent back to the dark ages in a heartbeat. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| crito03 wrote: |
| That a great article, great stats and the like. However what you said was blacks had it better off under apartheid than they do now. |
As I never said that, there's really no point in trying to make sense of and respond to the rest of your message.
I think it is quite obvious that blacks have it better in South Africa now. It does not necessarily follow from that the country is in better shape economically than it was, or that blacks (and others) are safer or healthier or able to live longer lives.
Me, I place a high value on personal safety, which is something that is somewhat more guaranteed in Korea than in inner cities in the U.S., or countries like Trinidad or today's South Africa, for obvious reasons. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Out of interest crito- whats the story in Trinidad? I know next to nothing about that part of the world. All I know is that they play cricket occasionally and have nice beaches. What are race relations like there? I notice they had a white guy representing them at the olympics. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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edit.
Last edited by Tiger Beer on Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Conchis
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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I�m not big on internet discussions, but as a white South African who is endlessly embarrassed by the likes of Rapier I feel I have to add my two cents. I have had only the most cursory of glances through these pages, so I won�t contribute anything to the specific arguments that have been brought up, but rather offer a white perspective on South Africa that is free of paranoia, bitterness, and racism:
South Africa has NEVER been a better place to be than it is now, for anyone. It is not a banana republic, as Rapier would have you believe, and whites are not being chased out by machete wielding hoardes. The economy is healthy and people are settling into their roles as free and empowered individuals. The country has a feisty press, an accountable government (just ask Jacob Zuma or Tony Yengeni...) and a creative and friendly population. Most importantly, though, is that our souls are no longer tainted nor oppressed by fascism. Admittedly, the crime situation is appalling, and we all desperately hope that this will change, but this is by far the biggest stain on an incredibly broad and colourful canvas. Of course no country is perfect, etcetera, etcetera, the usual disclaimers...but the foundations are there.
Unfortunately the opinions that Rapier spouts are the opinions that are remembered as typically white South African, but they bare absolutely no resemblance to those of the Observatory buskers, the Wits academics, the Newtown poets, the Afrikaans intellectuals, and the AIDS activists that I know - people who enjoy the country for what it is, and not some potential gin and tonic safari utopia. Please ignore the usual expat blather: look to the likes of Edwin Cameron and Ivan Vladislavic for glorified examples of how critical and intelligent white South Africans engage with the country.
I have no problem with people hating South Africa or its government, especially if their lives have been affected by crime, but don�t tell me that life was ever better for the vast majority of South Africans. I've never met anyone here, white or black, who really believes that. |
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Zulu
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I've worked in Japan a few times (just short business trips) and found that while their businesses are very protectionist (though not as much as here) and some fringe groups certainly discriminate against gaijin, the press and general societal attitudes are as open as in Europe or North America. So I was surprised to see a 30% figure there. Yeah, maybe you should repost this poll with SK in there, too, as that's where many responders will have had experience on the receiving end of racism. |
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