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Drakoi
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: The World
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 Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| PEIGUY wrote: |
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| Who has the right of way?" he asked rhetorically. "I don't care. People here have to find their own way, negotiate for themselves, use their own brains |
koreans using there own brains.. that would be a first while driving.. most of them seem so shocked when your in a crosswalk and they almost hit you... makes me wonder where there head is when they're not on a cell phone  |
notice how they didn't hit you. because they noticed you. It's you who are not paying attention to them. it's all your fault. THAT'S THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE. YOU AS A PEDESTRIAN HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TOO. there's no such thing as safe white lines. you must use your eyes and your brain and not rely on the traffic 'rules'. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| you must use your eyes and your brain and not rely on the traffic 'rules'. |
That's very true in Korea, because the cars are certainly not following the traffic rules. And that's why Koreans kill each other on the road at the highest or near highest rates in the developed world. You truly take your life into your own hands on Korean roads. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Drakoi wrote: |
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| Schwa wrote: |
This is exactly right. Everyone negotiates their own right of way.
I feel much safer around Korean traffic than I do on the streets of Victoria BC where people dont so much drive their cars but their cars drive them. |
Glad you feel safer here, though that feeling is not one based in any kind of reality. Korea has consistantly had either the worst or at least top 3 road safety records in the developed world for the last 15 years. However you feel, the truth is you're not safe here. |
Kiwiwboy is statistically the worst or at least one of the top three most racist posters here. The proof. When most people talk about korea they can separate what's personal experience from broad generalization. But this guy must make everything an insult. It's a proven fact, because I have the statistics. |
well I can be sure that you have NEVER met KIWIBOY before! becuase for us that have the honor to know him!, know that he is one chill cat and racism is FAR from his vocabulary! so Drakoi you can assume to know him as much as you want! but you are far from the truth!!!
why not attend one of the Get togethers to meet him and see how wrong you are!
Last edited by itaewonguy on Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Drakoi
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: The World
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| Drakoi wrote: |
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| Schwa wrote: |
This is exactly right. Everyone negotiates their own right of way.
I feel much safer around Korean traffic than I do on the streets of Victoria BC where people dont so much drive their cars but their cars drive them. |
Glad you feel safer here, though that feeling is not one based in any kind of reality. Korea has consistantly had either the worst or at least top 3 road safety records in the developed world for the last 15 years. However you feel, the truth is you're not safe here. |
Kiwiwboy is statistically the worst or at least one of the top three most racist posters here. The proof. When most people talk about korea they can separate what's personal experience from broad generalization. But this guy must make everything an insult. It's a proven fact, because I have the statistics. |
well I can be sure that you have NEVER met KIWIBOY before! becuase for us that have the honor to know me!, know that he is one chill cat and racism is FAR from his vocabulary! so Drakoi you can assume to know him as much as you want! but you are far from the truth!!!
why not attend one of the Get togethers to meet him and see how wrong you are! |
Just an excersize in logic mefriend. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Drakoi wrote: |
| Just an excersize in logic mefriend. |
What kind of logic are we talking about here?
This is a conversation about road safety. You don't have to be anti Korean to be appalled at the road safety practices here, or the attendant road toll stats. How is this personal, or an insult, in any way? I happen to be angry about the road safety practices here because I think they are very very dangerous, for me, for you, and for the general Korean population. If that makes me racist or anti Korean I would appreciate a full explanaition of exactly why. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| People do run red lights a lot, but in my experience is it's because it's based on a timer rather than traffic sensors so more often than not there's NO good reason to be sitting there for three minutes when you can see there's no incoming traffic. (Incidentally this reasoning actually is accepted by the police who pull you over which would NEVER happen at home). |
Wonderful in theory; but in my experience, taxi drivers speed through intersections so quickly that they do not have the chance to check for incoming traffic.
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| I haven't got any statistics to throw around because they're usually a load of *beep* anyway, but for me the OP's article backs up my Korean experience. |
This is the single most revealing part of your post. Cold hard facts are cattle dollop but your own anectdotes are not? Oh, sorry, I forgot. Statistics are a tool of Western Imperialism.  |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| I've been driving in Korea for about a year now taking road trips every other weekend which get me to, and around the major cities like Seoul and Pusan, and locally in a small town of single lane roads. |
I've driven in Korea for four years, "thang", so, I think I can weigh in a bit on this wonderful conversation. Keep in mind that this is based on what I have seen and driving to work everyday Monday through Friday and also travelling out of the city on nearly every weekend to a nearby city. I have also take the occassional trip (over four hours) at least once a year - time permitting. I took more when I was attending Kotesol meetings but I haven't been doing that in the last year or so.
I haven't driven in Seoul, but I've pretty much driven all over the rest of Korea.
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My experience is that Koreans just have their own way of doing it - which includes a general disregard for street signs and traffic lights. Personally this is something that took a bit of getting used to, and I had a few near misses until I got into the flow of things.
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They certainly do and does take some getting used to. I have become a more unsafe driver living here.
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But for those who doubt it they DO slow down for each other, they do wait until you've passed. Hell I've had people reverse 500 meters down winding, one lane roads coated with ice so that I could pass, and I've done the same. It's all based on using your brain and watching what the other guy is doing, and what he might do, and going with it. It all seems to be based on getting on with the driving in a pragmatic way considering the congestion, and limited space.
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If you're on some single lane concrete country road with no barriers, yeah I can see it. But going reverse especially in icy conditions is madness. As well, I fail to see how this proves that Koreans are, well, safe drivers.
And again, I haven't seen them slow down especially on crosswalks. I can understand that inattentiveness may play a role in some of the incidents, but I can't begin to count how many near misses I've had as a pedesterian. In fairness, some Koreans are not happy about the unsafe driving habits.
One would think that because of the congestion that they would be more...well...respectful of eachother. But I guess its true that when you pack a bunch of rats in a cage they start to cannibalize eachother.
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I've heard a lot of waegookin whinging about driving practices in Korea, but while driving around the country, and in the cities I've never seen anything to back it up. People park in places I wouldn't have even considered back home, but it has it's own logic - as long as there's a passage for traffic to drive through it's OK.
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Granted that there are unsafe drivers everywhere, but how is it "logical" to run red lights, drive without headlights on when it is foggy, rainy, or dark, pull into the left hand turning lane and then suddenly go straight and cut people off when the light goes green? And no one still know that you have to yield to the person on the LEFT in a traffic circle (or commonly called a "rotary").
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People do run red lights a lot, but in my experience is it's because it's based on a timer rather than traffic sensors so more often than not there's NO good reason to be sitting there for three minutes when you can see there's no incoming traffic. (Incidentally this reasoning actually is accepted by the police who pull you over which would NEVER happen at home).
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There is a damn good reason why you wait at a red light, timer or no. It's because if some jerk is speeding through on the green he might hit you. And Korea is not flat like Nebraska, but full of blind corners and other hazards.
I assume the second part of your sentence means that a Korean cop will let you off if you ran the red light. Well, that reflects poorly on them, but since Korea is where rules are "flexible", it's not suprising.
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They do beep their horns, but it seems to me that it's just to warn you that they're there so don't pull that U-turn just yet.
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Some do. Some also beep their horns for the heck of it. And some like to turn on the hazard lights for no damn reason at all, unless it means activating the force fields, thereby protecting their car from all manner of harm.
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I haven't got any statistics to throw around because they're usually a load of *beep* anyway, but for me the OP's article backs up my Korean experience.
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Koreans don't really have a concept of "personal space", or haven't you noticed that when you walk down the street? Put the same guy behind a 2 ton car or even bigger SUV and now you get more of an idea of what is going on.
Now, since you don't like stats to prove any kind of argument, well, I will provide some links to prove mine.
This article shows that Korea is doing its best to reduce the amount of accidents but says that "road traffic injuries still pose a major threat to the well-being of Korean society."
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/traffic/papers/Korea.pdf
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International comparison of road traffic fatalities
Australian fatality rates are compared with those for other selected OECD nations in table 22.25. Australia's rate of 9.4 road traffic-related fatalities per 100,000 persons in 2000 is similar to the rates in Canada (9.5), Germany (9.1), Switzerland (8.3), and Japan (8.2). It is considerably below the rates in the Republic of (South) Korea (21. , Poland (16.3), the United States of America (15.2), Spain (14.5), France (13.6) and New Zealand (12.1). Australia's rate is, however, markedly higher than Sweden (6.7) and the United Kingdom (6.0).
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http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/0/e4e3096c63d5bf4fca256dea00053a3c?OpenDocument
There are about 714 traffic accidents that occur in SK daily, resulting in 22 fatalities.
http://www.knia.or.kr/sources/admin/topicboard/EngBoardMain.asp?BbsID=061&mode=view&page=2&num=3&kword=&ks=&kc=&kw=
Road Crash data, 2003
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/stats-multicountry-percapita-2003.htm |
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komtengi
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Location: Slummin it up in Haebangchon
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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I find it even more ridiculious that Koreans aren't taught to do head checks when they learn to drive... only to use the mirror.
maybe their not learning to drive, but really learning magic with all that smoke and mirrors |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Circus Monkey wrote: |
Now, since you don't like stats to prove any kind of argument, well, I will provide some links to prove mine.
This article shows that Korea is doing its best to reduce the amount of accidents but says that "road traffic injuries still pose a major threat to the well-being of Korean society."
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/traffic/papers/Korea.pdf
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International comparison of road traffic fatalities
Australian fatality rates are compared with those for other selected OECD nations in table 22.25. Australia's rate of 9.4 road traffic-related fatalities per 100,000 persons in 2000 is similar to the rates in Canada (9.5), Germany (9.1), Switzerland (8.3), and Japan (8.2). It is considerably below the rates in the Republic of (South) Korea {21.8}, Poland (16.3), the United States of America (15.2), Spain (14.5), France (13.6) and New Zealand (12.1). Australia's rate is, however, markedly higher than Sweden (6.7) and the United Kingdom (6.0).
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According to those stats, in the realm of traffic fatalities Canada is better than America by about the same amount as America is better than Korea. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Some do. Some also beep their horns for the heck of it. And some like to turn on the hazard lights for no damn reason at all, unless it means activating the force fields, thereby protecting their car from all manner of harm. |
This is my favorite Korean driver piece of madness. It's baffling. If they're going to do something crazy and want to inform other drivers then wack on the hazards!! The rights or wrongs of doing something crazy in the first place seem neither here nor there.
Also, an indicator to show in which direction you're actually going to perform this crazy manouver is much more helpful to other drivers than the 'what the hell is he going to do?' hazards.
Has anyone noticed the downright weird thing some drivers here do at a stop-light?
They turn off their headlights until traffic is moving again. Why? Is it to achieve a kind of stealth state so the car in front thinks there's no one behind him then, BAM! Here I am!! |
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Drakoi
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: The World
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
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| Some do. Some also beep their horns for the heck of it. And some like to turn on the hazard lights for no damn reason at all, unless it means activating the force fields, thereby protecting their car from all manner of harm. |
This is my favorite Korean driver piece of madness. It's baffling. If they're going to do something crazy and want to inform other drivers then wack on the hazards!! The rights or wrongs of doing something crazy in the first place seem neither here nor there.
Also, an indicator to show in which direction you're actually going to perform this crazy manouver is much more helpful to other drivers than the 'what the hell is he going to do?' hazards.
Has anyone noticed the downright weird thing some drivers here do at a stop-light?
They turn off their headlights until traffic is moving again. Why? Is it to achieve a kind of stealth state so the car in front thinks there's no one behind him then, BAM! Here I am!! |
the lightsout are a courtesy to peds. they do the same thing in san francisco.
lights are visual and don't help people looking in other directions.
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| What kind of logic are we talking about here? |
The logic of citing stats without giving stats is just as meaningless as making something up. So are statistics that aren't properly corrected for errors. And the logic of a stastic that shows correlation to be a causation for something else.
the statistic someone gave was for fatalaties per 100,000 people, in what? car to car accidents, per 100,000 people in general or per number of licensed drivers, over what geographical population density? Austraila ought to have a low measure in this sense since you've got the whole freaking outback and so the U.S. would be skewed even appallingly higher. Are these accidents involving alcohol or everyday driving?
Are they fatal because of the cheap cars which lack expensive safety features? are they fatal because of a lack of childseats? improper use of seat belts? IT SAYS FATALITIES, not total number of accidents per hour of driving!!!!!!! for fucks sake. It's a completely meaningless statistic.
MAYBE THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS DURING THE DAY, ALL THE FATAL CRASHES COME AT NIGHT WHEN DRUNK PEOPLE DRIVE WITHOUT THEIR SEATBELTS! OR DRUNK PEOPLE RUN OUT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD.
THAT SITUATION IS NOT WHAT THE ARTICLE IS TALKING ABOUT, IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE RULES OF TRAFFIC AND THAT YOU ARE SAFER WHEN PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO CARS AND PEDS, NOT TO SIGNS OR LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STICK TO THE MOTHERBEEPING POINT! |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Drakoi wrote: |
Are they fatal because of the cheap cars which lack expensive safety features? are they fatal because of a lack of childseats? improper use of seat belts? IT SAYS FATALITIES, not total number of accidents per hour of driving!!!!!!! for *beep* sake. It's a completely meaningless statistic.
MAYBE THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS DURING THE DAY, ALL THE FATAL CRASHES COME AT NIGHT WHEN DRUNK PEOPLE DRIVE WITHOUT THEIR SEATBELTS! OR DRUNK PEOPLE RUN OUT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD.
THAT SITUATION IS NOT WHAT THE ARTICLE IS TALKING ABOUT, IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE RULES OF TRAFFIC AND THAT YOU ARE SAFER WHEN PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO CARS AND PEDS, NOT TO SIGNS OR LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STICK TO THE MOTHERBEEPING POINT! |
Ahem.
*Brushes crumbs off shirt.*
Does this qualify as whining? |
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Drakoi
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: The World
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote: |
| Drakoi wrote: |
Are they fatal because of the cheap cars which lack expensive safety features? are they fatal because of a lack of childseats? improper use of seat belts? IT SAYS FATALITIES, not total number of accidents per hour of driving!!!!!!! for *beep* sake. It's a completely meaningless statistic.
MAYBE THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS DURING THE DAY, ALL THE FATAL CRASHES COME AT NIGHT WHEN DRUNK PEOPLE DRIVE WITHOUT THEIR SEATBELTS! OR DRUNK PEOPLE RUN OUT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD.
THAT SITUATION IS NOT WHAT THE ARTICLE IS TALKING ABOUT, IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE RULES OF TRAFFIC AND THAT YOU ARE SAFER WHEN PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO CARS AND PEDS, NOT TO SIGNS OR LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STICK TO THE MOTHERBEEPING POINT! |
Ahem.
*Brushes crumbs off shirt.*
Does this qualify as whining? |
exasperation at stupidity. my students learn faster than this lot. |
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Circus Monkey
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: In my coconut tree
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Having proved to �happeningthang� that Koreans are, for the most part, unsafe and lead the world in traffic accidents and fatalities, I believe the whole point of cjonlee�s post (which is just a link and devoid of any of his own thoughts) is that by implementing the system touted by Monderman will somehow get rid of all of Korea�s traffic ills.
I disagree, and based on my own personal observations, I can safely say that removal of all traffic signs and lights in Korea will probably make things worse, not better, The �bali bali� and �me first� attitude will contribute to more accidents, not less. I also think that the concept of �right of way� is either not taught at all or given scant attention. And this is no small item since �right of way� or �compromise� is lacking here.
Monderman conceded that 15% of all drivers will never change their bad driving habits and that his system will �thrive only in conjunction with well-organized, well-regulated highway systems.� As well, his system does not take into account the leading causes of accidents in Korea which is reckless driving (including drunk driving). I don�t know what Monderman would think about 64% reckless driving stat. Maybe the removal of all traffic signs and lights would lower that percentage. In fairness, I don�t think he makes the claim that his system addresses drunk driving.
I�ll conclude with a quote from the article:
�An elderly woman crossed slowly in front of him.
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"This is social space, so when Grandma is coming, you stop, because that's what normal, courteous human beings do," he [Monderman] said.�
It is indeed normal to stop for pedestrians, but I don�t see it. I�ve had too many close calls at crosswalks and have witnessed trucks and cars wantonly amble through red lights with a clear green flashing light for the pedestrians at crosswalks (and yes, there were pedestrians waiting to cross � in fact, at least 3-4 people at any given time). I would like to be proven wrong though, and I would like to see the traffic accidents and fatalities but I remain skeptical if such a system was introduced here. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:47 am Post subject: |
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The majority of my korean friends are skilled conscientious drivers, & most of them have been driving for years without so much as a fenderbender.
On the other hand new drivers here are a scary bunch -- theyre unleashed on the roads without a clue. Licencing requirements could stand to be tightened up a lot. Meanwhile taxi & truck drivers are very aggressive, & sharing roads with nervous hesitant newbies -- bad mix.
Do road death stats include cars hitting pedestrians? That would inflate Korea's rate of fatalities. I see the elderly wander into busy traffic, anywhere they feel like it, on a daily basis. Likewise kids are clearly underinformed about the dangers of playing near traffic.
As a pedestrian with my eyes open, I dont feel unduly threatened. |
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