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Canuckophile
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:02 pm Post subject: To Bosintang |
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Gotta give you points for originality.... as in
HOW TO LOSE YOUR JOB AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE (to think it was a plan, I guess)
I don't see how "chilling out" will help the Koreans or anyone else learn another language. Koreans are trying to learn English cuz it's a world language and NO ONE knows Korean outside the Peninsula.
They aren't "trying too hard" - it's just a messed up system imitating the Japanese (who've tried and failed to learn English for about 40 + years now). They've spent most of this time trying to learn English from Koreans who don't exactly know English.
There are too FEW westerners (esp qualified ones) teaching English - and often teaching with inappropriate methods/materials (Korean bow here to K schools, esp hogwons)
CANUCKOPHILE |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: To Bosintang |
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| Canuckophile wrote: |
Gotta give you points for originality.... as in
HOW TO LOSE YOUR JOB AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE (to think it was a plan, I guess)
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I was joking..I'm sorry you missed the implied sarcasm.
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I don't see how "chilling out" will help the Koreans or anyone else learn another language. Koreans are trying to learn English cuz it's a world language and NO ONE knows Korean outside the Peninsula.
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And yet, the vast majority of people in Korea who are learning English will never use it in any demanding situation in their lifetime. Learning English is certainly a good thing, but not at *any* cost.
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They aren't "trying too hard" - it's just a messed up system imitating the Japanese (who've tried and failed to learn English for about 40 + years now). They've spent most of this time trying to learn English from Koreans who don't exactly know English.
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There are lots of fluent Korean English-teachers in Korea. Are they native speakers? no. Do they speak and write as well as native speakers? Obviously not. However, they speak and write it well enough that it is fine for the functional use of what the average Korean student needs (and let's face it, it's not that high).
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There are too FEW westerners (esp qualified ones) teaching English - and often teaching with inappropriate methods/materials (Korean bow here to K schools, esp hogwons)
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I don't think there are too few westerners here teaching English, I just don't think they are used here as efficiently as they can be. As far as inappropriate methods/materials, that may or may not be a problem, but that's an aside from the issue of foreign teachers. |
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Canuckophile
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: To Bosintang |
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You're right - I had no idea you were joking. (Now if someone would only tell me that the folks who think it's OK to import western drug addicts to teach English are joking - my faith in human nature might be restored.)
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| And yet, the vast majority of people in Korea who are learning English will never use it in any demanding situation in their lifetime. Learning English is certainly a good thing, but not at *any* cost. |
I wasn't aware I'd said this. I suspect, however, that Koreans will have a greater need to use the English they've learned than (for ex.) most of us will have to use any algebra we might (by some miracle) remember. For ex., many shop-owners, taxi drivers, etc. - those who interact with the public - will benefit from English, and not just to talk to westerners. They may find (as my Korean friends have) that ANYONE from another country is more likely to know English than any other language.
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| There are lots of fluent Korean English-teachers in Korea. |
Most of the truly fluent Koreans I've met have been fairly wealthy people who have traveled or lived abroad. The Koreans I've met who teach English have been highly uneven - and most would not qualify to teach the language if (a) there were more fluent Koreans (b) the fluent Koreans who exist actually wanted to teach English (because it's a low-status, low-paying job to teach in hogwons, for ex. - not sure about the univs).
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| I don't think there are too few westerners here teaching English, I just don't think they are used here as efficiently as they can be. As far as inappropriate methods/materials, that may or may not be a problem, but that's an aside from the issue of foreign teachers. |
I think both are true - too few competent teachers, poor materials/methodologies.
This is especially true if the public schools make a serious effort to teach English. That will require weeding out a lot of the Korean teachers who specialize in "grammar" (i.e., can't speak English) and that would probably create World War III with the teachers' unions. (And a serious effort to teach English in the public schools would also create WWIII with the hogwons.)
Finally, it would cost a lot for the public schools to recruit teachers and establish proper program with the classroom "frontline" manned by westerners and Kyopos.
So I don't think it will happen, in fact, but I do think it's needed. If Korea wants to be an educated, world-class society, they will have to strive toward bilinguality. (Look at the BEST of Europe - namely the Scandinavian countries ... best standard of living/best education/best of nearly everything... and most bilingual, too.)
My 2 cents (20 won)
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: To Bosintang |
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| Canuckophile wrote: |
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| There are lots of fluent Korean English-teachers in Korea. |
Most of the truly fluent Koreans I've met have been fairly wealthy people who have traveled or lived abroad. The Koreans I've met who teach English have been highly uneven - and most would not qualify to teach the language if (a) there were more fluent Koreans (b) the fluent Koreans who exist actually wanted to teach English (because it's a low-status, low-paying job to teach in hogwons, for ex. - not sure about the univs). |
Actually, I'm amazed at the size of the under-employed workforce that speaks English well enough to teach it, over here. If Korea followed the successful Philippines english education model of 'teach their own' from their own countrymen who have high TOEIC levels, and then worry about tweaking pronunciation and learning advanced contemporary usages in study abroad programs, they would fare far better than what they're doing now. But at the root of the issue over here is the Korean image obsession and the 'best of the best' idealism, that allows for the fixed belief that they must have western faces teaching them. And the out of control 'keeping up with the joneses' competitive spirit that occurs when one hagwon who employs a kyopo with an MA TESOL from UCLA, starts losing enrollment to the upstart across the street that employs a pretty blond from Kamloops, who has a BA in Computer Science, and only has bookkeeping for dad's autoshop, listed on her resume.
| Canuckophile wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't think there are too few westerners here teaching English, I just don't think they are used here as efficiently as they can be. As far as inappropriate methods/materials, that may or may not be a problem, but that's an aside from the issue of foreign teachers. |
Finally, it would cost a lot for the public schools to recruit teachers and establish proper program with the classroom "frontline" manned by westerners and Kyopos. |
Actually, this has been happening with the govt-sponsored EPIK and Fulbright programs for a number of years. At least from the staffing and establishment of a program, point of view. EPIK does have it's hit/miss flaws in other areas, however, but that's usually at the individual school level and the relationships between director and teacher.
| Canuckophile wrote: |
So I don't think it will happen, in fact, but I do think it's needed. If Korea wants to be an educated, world-class society, they will have to strive toward bilinguality. (Look at the BEST of Europe - namely the Scandinavian countries ... best standard of living/best education/best of nearly everything... and most bilingual, too.) |
It depends on what you classify as bilingual. If you're talking fluency, then take Iceland and Norway off of that list. I haven't travelled extensively in Sweden or Finland, but I was very tight with the scandinavian ethnic communities in my home town, and the majority of the Swedes were better than the avg Korean, but not by much.
Besides, encouraging Korea to follow the Scandinavian social model, would require a monumental shift in their political ideologies, which is certainly not going to come about, stemming from a relatively trivial issue, all things being considered, about their perceived interest in improving their english education system. |
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Canuckophile
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: To ChronicPride |
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ChronicPride wrote:
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| If Korea followed the successful Philippines english education model of 'teach their own' from their own countrymen who have high TOEIC levels, and then worry about tweaking pronunciation and learning advanced contemporary usages in study abroad programs, they would fare far better than what they're doing now. |
I certainly agree that Koreans obsess too much about western faces -- but (except for the Kyopos) there is a valid reason for this. Too many Koreans will claim competency in English (they've traveled abroad or whatever) but don't have it. For most Koreans, the western face makes it a pretty safe bet that the quality of English instruction (esp pronunciation, which is difficult for Koreans) will be better. The bias against Kyopos was always silly and seems to be diminishing. Job posts now frequently indicate that ONLY Kyopos need apply... just a couple of years ago, they were told NOT to apply.
And while the Filipino model might be an improvement, please remember that the Philippines were a US territory until (I believe) sometime in the late 1980's. Throughout most of the 20th century (until independence from the US), Filipinos travelled freely to the US, served in our military, studied in the US, etc. As a result, Filipinos are WAY more likely to have "instruction-grade" English than Koreans are.
Regarding the placement of western teachers in the schools, you remark that EPIK is doing this.
I am aware of this, and presumably this will be a big factor in moving English education in the right direction. (I will be teaching in one of these schools soon... so I'll have a better sense of it in another year!) I have been told, however, that the Korean teachers still do all the testing and grading. In other words, the westerners are still "for show" in some ways -- just like in the hogwons.
I appreciate the point that schools will vary according to the level of commitment/understanding (and maybe just plain old politics) in the individual school. Presumably this will diminish somewhat as the education establishment analyses the results of the program and (we can hope) realizes that the western teachers are having a major impact on the children's comprehension and use of English.
Regarding my comments on Scandinavian bilinguality, you are skeptical. I don't have any data to back this up but it is certainly something that I see cited frequently. Iceland's a different story of course - an isolated country with one of the world's purest languages. I kind of hope they don't ruin it with English! Norway I dunno -- I don't meet many Norwegians traveling. But the Finns, Swedes, Danes (in fact, all the Germanic peoples with the possible exception of the Icelanders) have excellent English, and it's rare to meet one who doesn't speak fluently. I would class them not only WAY ahead of Koreans, but way ahead of a lot of North Americans (to my embarrassment).
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| Besides, encouraging Korea to follow the Scandinavian social model, would require a monumental shift in their political ideologies, which is certainly not going to come about, stemming from a relatively trivial issue, all things being considered, about their perceived interest in improving their english education system |
I have no clue what you mean here. I did not suggest that Korea follow the Scandinavian social model (or I didn't mean to). I said only that if Korea wants to be one of the Big Boys (i.e., a more sophisticated world player) then look at the countries which have done so. These countries (I mentioned Scandinavia) are prosperous, with stable political and social economies. Better English will not make Korean society any more sophisticated, but it will certainly make them a greater part of the world community and more competitive economically.
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:18 am Post subject: Re: To ChronicPride |
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| Canuckophile wrote: |
ChronicPride wrote:
| Quote: |
| If Korea followed the successful Philippines english education model of 'teach their own' from their own countrymen who have high TOEIC levels, and then worry about tweaking pronunciation and learning advanced contemporary usages in study abroad programs, they would fare far better than what they're doing now. |
I certainly agree that Koreans obsess too much about western faces -- but (except for the Kyopos) there is a valid reason for this. Too many Koreans will claim competency in English (they've traveled abroad or whatever) but don't have it. For most Koreans, the western face makes it a pretty safe bet that the quality of English instruction (esp pronunciation, which is difficult for Koreans) will be better. The bias against Kyopos was always silly and seems to be diminishing. Job posts now frequently indicate that ONLY Kyopos need apply... just a couple of years ago, they were told NOT to apply.
And while the Filipino model might be an improvement, please remember that the Philippines were a US territory until (I believe) sometime in the late 1980's. Throughout most of the 20th century (until independence from the US), Filipinos travelled freely to the US, served in our military, studied in the US, etc. As a result, Filipinos are WAY more likely to have "instruction-grade" English than Koreans are. |
I'm not discounting that. But don't also discount the thousands of Korean KATUSA soldiers who have worked with the US army for the past 50 years, who all have a minimum 700 TOEIC score, and who could be providing a foundation of english language instruction, plus the thousands of F4 kyopos, and throw in the thousands of Koreans who score high on their TOEICs, but can't get work, because they weren't able to attend a prestigious university and make contacts. There are a lot more of them than the 20,000 or so, of us. Large enough for them to follow a 'teach their own' model. And the greed that has become the basis of the english education industry, can be directed towards running overseas camps, and study abroad placement agencies, which is a really lucrative and still under-saturated market, I should add.
| Canuckophile wrote: |
Regarding my comments on Scandinavian bilinguality, you are skeptical. I don't have any data to back this up but it is certainly something that I see cited frequently. Iceland's a different story of course - an isolated country with one of the world's purest languages. I kind of hope they don't ruin it with English! Norway I dunno -- I don't meet many Norwegians traveling. But the Finns, Swedes, Danes (in fact, all the Germanic peoples with the possible exception of the Icelanders) have excellent English, and it's rare to meet one who doesn't speak fluently. I would class them not only WAY ahead of Koreans, but way ahead of a lot of North Americans (to my embarrassment).
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We just have different opinions and experiences on this one. I think it's fair to establish this topic as being subjective.
| Canuckophile wrote: |
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| Besides, encouraging Korea to follow the Scandinavian social model, would require a monumental shift in their political ideologies, which is certainly not going to come about, stemming from a relatively trivial issue, all things being considered, about their perceived interest in improving their english education system |
I have no clue what you mean here. I did not suggest that Korea follow the Scandinavian social model (or I didn't mean to). I said only that if Korea wants to be one of the Big Boys (i.e., a more sophisticated world player) then look at the countries which have done so. These countries (I mentioned Scandinavia) are prosperous, with stable political and social economies. Better English will not make Korean society any more sophisticated, but it will certainly make them a greater part of the world community and more competitive economically.
CANUCKOPHILE |
Ok. I see your meaning there. My bad. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Tell me it ain't so - a few people seem to think it's OK for westerners with drug addiction problems to come to SK as teachers????? |
Actually, 51% of Americans think it's ok for a former addict to be President. Drop the goody two-shoes routine. You'd be surprised what you can find in every family if you dig hard enough. You think that people who have had problems with addiction should be what? Gassed? Put on an island? Where are you from and does it rain gumdrops there? |
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Len8
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Kyungju
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: |
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The Scandinavian languages are teutonic (as is English) aren't they? The Sweedes, Finns, Danes and the Norwegians should therefore pick up the English language a lot more easily than the Koreans
The competition thing though is bigger than we think. There are parents who are willing to paye private tutors to spend hours with their 8 and 9 year olds until they master the language. I have seen this at camps where 10 year olds are thrown in with 13 and 14 year olds, because they are almost fluent. They haven't lived abroad either and they have never attended academies. Couldn't figure that one out until a Korean friend explained to me how they were taught.
Unfortunately what you get is a "keeping up with the Jones" mentality among the dear mothers friends. All the others with their 8 and 9 year old little Jonnie"s and little "Mary's" are going to do anything to have their kids speaking English too. That of course starts something in the whole neighbourhood and then the idea eventually spreads.
Last edited by Len8 on Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:13 am; edited 2 times in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: |
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I think this deserves to be seen again:
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| Actually, I'm amazed at the size of the under-employed workforce that speaks English well enough to teach it, over here. If Korea followed the successful Philippines english education model of 'teach their own' from their own countrymen who have high TOEIC levels, and then worry about tweaking pronunciation and learning advanced contemporary usages in study abroad programs, they would fare far better than what they're doing now. But at the root of the issue over here is the Korean image obsession and the 'best of the best' idealism, that allows for the fixed belief that they must have western faces teaching them. And the out of control 'keeping up with the joneses' competitive spirit that occurs when one hagwon who employs a kyopo with an MA TESOL from UCLA, starts losing enrollment to the upstart across the street that employs a pretty blond from Kamloops, who has a BA in Computer Science, and only has bookkeeping for dad's autoshop, listed on her resume. |
As for Swedes and other Scandinavian peoples, they're good at learning English when they feel like they should. A person who's spent their life in a small town in Sweden won't do any better than the average Korean when it comes to talking with someone in English, but when they get a job abroad and decide it's time to buckle down, then one year later they're fluent. It works the other way around too. Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are three of the easiest languages to learn. I think they would have made way better world languages than English. Verb conjugation can be learned in five minutes. They're amazingly simple. |
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Canuckophile
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:05 am Post subject: Mongolians get the message - why don't Koreans? |
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Serendipitously, the NY Times published this article on the international race to learn English, focusing on Mongolia. (Korea is mentioned - specifically the new language villages.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/15/international/asia/15mongolia.html
The Mongolians have adopted (drumroll, please!) the SINGAPORE MODEL. They are also STREAMLINING THEIR CUMBERSOME VISA PROCESS. Koreans, wake up!
Unlike the Koreans, the Mongols at least have a tradition of learning other languages. Of course, Korean/Japanese/Mongolian are part of the same body of languages, so on the face of it, English will be as much of a challenge for them as for Koreans. Something tells me, however, that the Mongols will learn faster and better because they will NOT imitate the Korean/Japanese model.
As for various comments on this board regarding Scandinavians, please note the article's comment about Chile:
"In Chile, the government has embarked on a national program to teach English in all elementary and high schools. The goal is to make the nation of 15 million people bilingual within a generation. The models are the Netherlands and the Nordic nations, which have achieved proficiency in English since World War II."
As I have mentioned, the Japanese, who developed the model that Koreans are following, have also struggled (unsuccessfully) to learn English since WWII, and have accelerated their (unsuccessful) efforts since the 1960's.
BTW, I am well aware that English is easier for Germanic peoples to learn, since English is part of the greater body of Germanic languages. English, however, is the least Germanic. Our grammar is a mishmash, and our vocabulary draws 60% of its words from the French and Latin. (That's why we don't say "I think I'll eat a cow tonight." We say: "I think I'll eat beef.")
English is in fact a hybrid language. Along with the Norman Conquest (which brought us the French/Latin), we are a mongrel language happily devouring others when it suits us.
Our food vocabulary, for ex., is enhanced by our love of Italian food - haven't you noticed that Koreans do not realize that pizza, lasagne, etc. are not "native" American foods? Or words?
In fact, I think that's the strength of English -- our vocabulary is the largest of all languages, in part because we swipe words from other languages quite routinely, but we also continue to invent words -- for ex., Black Ghetto English keeps inventing new slang that is adopted rather quickly when it resonates with North American culture.
Well, it's nice to have the New York Times weigh in on this discussion - and substantiate a few things I've mentioned.
Hope you read this article - not only is it interesting, but it may give you some job leads!
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Canuckophile
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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Canuckophile
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:41 am Post subject: Flogging dead horses; Chronic Pride/Len8/Pyongshin |
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To Chronic Pride:
(1) I have also met many Koreans with decent English who would make much better teachers than many Koreans who are now teaching English. A mystery, eh? I guess most relates to "credentials" problem... if they don't have degree or didn't go to right univ., they can't teach higher levels. (One of best Korean speakers I met ... thought he was a Kyopo for over a month... can only teach kindies cuz he's not a uni grad. Makes no sense.)
(2) I've met only a few KATUSAs - their English was serviceable but not great (i.e., outside Korea, they would have trouble making themselves understood; in Korea they seem like good speakers.) Maybe these are the exception and there are great KATUSA bilinguals out there; I dunno.
To Len8:
The Finns are not in the Germanic body of languages. The Finno-Ugric languages (Magyar in Hungary, for ex.) are in fact likely distant relatives of the Mongol languages, including Korean.
To Pyongshin:
If I could eat enough magic mushrooms to make Bush go away, I would definitely give up my Marlboros and chow down. Hey, what say we offer him a "retirement prize" in 2008 - send him to a hogwon to teach English??? No - I don't want to gas all junkies ... not at all ... please don't assume I'm putting down people with addictions. I just don't see them as the proper choice for teaching school anywhere - not until the addictions problem is for sure resolved. |
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Len8
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Location: Kyungju
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| The mongolians will probably adopt a Russian method for learning English in as much as their European bent is towards Russia. Most Mongolians I have heard speak Russian anyway. The people from Kazakstan and the other Rusian Satelittes have intensive programes that focus on the spoken English. Have met exchange students from that part of the world, and they have pointed out the numerous flaws in the way Koreans learn English. They think the Korean programes and methods are quite ridiculous. |
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Canuckophile
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: To Len 8 |
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NYT article points out that Mongolians are (a) adopting Singaporean model of learning English -- not the Russian method you mention, whatever that is; (b) dropping their Russian studies. Their Russian is already getting more than a bit rusty (15 years since collapse of Soviet Union) and they find it useless. They will also drop the Cyrillic alphabet fairly soon - new Prez tried to legislate it immediately but they decided that was premature.
Would suggest you read the article - quite interesting. |
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OCOKA Dude
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Flogging dead horses; Chronic Pride/Len8/Pyongshin |
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| Canuckophile wrote: |
| (One of best Korean speakers I met ... thought he was a Kyopo for over a month... can only teach kindies cuz he's not a uni grad. Makes no sense.) |
You don't seem to know what a "kyopo" is, and by the way, the preferred spelling is Gyopo. Gyopo's are Koreans who are citizens of a foreign country like the U.S. or Canada, i.e., they are NOT Korean citizens. If your Korean speaker friend went overseas for a month -- presumably to study -- then he is what we call a "Yuhaksaeng" or exchange student. Yuhaksaengs are not Gyopos, and the rivalry between these two groups on any U.S. college campus is actually palpable.
| Canuckophile wrote: |
| (2) I've met only a few KATUSAs - their English was serviceable but not great (i.e., outside Korea, they would have trouble making themselves understood; in Korea they seem like good speakers.) Maybe these are the exception and there are great KATUSA bilinguals out there; I dunno. |
"Great" doesn't really work when describing non-native language fluency. However, if you were really straining yourself to make heads or tails out of this former "KATUSA's" English, he probably wasn't a KATUSA at all.
I've met many bonafide KATUSAs and I can tell you that their English speaking and comprehension is above average.
This is because KATUSAs are already high-achievers when chose for these positions (Minimum TOEFL and TEPS scores are required). They also have to learn (and have to use) very practical and functional English during their two year tour of duty serving with soldiers representing every corner of the U.S.
So by the time their two-year hitch is up, these guys stand out from the crowd as their English is invariably at a higher level than your average non-KATUSA university grad who just did regular ROK service. |
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