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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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W.T. Carl, your attitude sucks @ss. Some values should be made universal. Things like banning murder, slavery, and child prostitution. As well as this, discriminaton against people because of race, gender or if they are homosexual. As you should be well aware, there are many homosexuals in Korea. I am sure they don't like being treated like second class individuals and would agree with our supposedly "Western Fascist ideals." Get into the 21st century W.T. Carl.
BTW, I am not gay if that matters to some posters, though it really shouldn't. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| What an arrogant, ignorant racist. Who are you to determine what should be "universal truth"? |
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teachmeenglish
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:17 am Post subject: |
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W.T. Carl Wrote:
"What an arrogant, ignorant racist. Who are you to determine what should be "universal truth"?
"Why should they follow a bunch of arrogant fascist westerners?"
You sound like you have been taking lessons from Kim Jong Il |
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tommynomad
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Location: on the move
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| What an arrogant, ignorant racist. Who are you to determine what should be "universal truth"? |
He said "values."
And how exactly is Guri Guy being ignorant?
Do you, W.T.C., support discrimination against homosexuals?
Do you believe that a society's injustices should be excused on the basis of culture? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Why should they follow a bunch of arrogant fascist westerners? It's their culture. Who do you think you are to try to impose your values on them?Do they try to come to west and force you to put dog soup on your menus? No.
If you don't like it there, go back to Canada and starve. Who are you to say which culture is more or less advanced? |
There are two ways you can critique a culture, one legitimate the other not. Take an imaginary culture called the Dahoos, who have a taboo against dying hair.
Legit criticism:
The Dahooist attitude toward people whoe dye their hair is counterproductive. By discriminating against people who dye their hair, the Dahoos deprive themselves of talented workers, and discourage their citizens from improving the general aesthetics of the place with new and interesting hairstyles.
Not so legit criticism:
As a person with purple hair, I am appalled at the discrimination I have recieved since I arrived in Dahooland. What is with these people?? I am a human being like anyone else, and back home I would be accpeted acording to who I am, not what colour my hair is.
The first statement is simply pointing out an aspect of the culture, and commenting on the pros and cons. Anthropologists and sociologists do this all the time, and there's nothing wrong with it. In the second statement, the person is claiming that he is the victim of some sort of injustice because the Dahoos don't tolerate his hair colour. Essentially, he's showing up in the country and saying "here I am, and you had better damn well treat me like I would be treated back home". Obviously, that's not cool, and the complainer is no more a victim of discrimination than I am of bad food if I continue to go to the same greasy spoon every day. If you relocate to a country, the burden is on you to find out about what it does and does not tolerate, and adjust your behaviour accordingly. Sure, you can try and push the envelope(I certainly do on some things in Korea), but at the end of the day if the culture decides that it doesn't want the envelope pushed as far as you would like to push it, then your remaining option is either to change your way of doing things or get the hell out.
My point is that most of the criticism of Korea that I've seen on this thread is of the "legit" type. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Do I support discrimination against homosexuals in my country? No. Korea is not my country, and neither you nor I nor ANYBODY else ( other than a Korean) have ANY right to comment on the culture of a country that they a merely visiting. To do so is the height of ethnocentrism. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| Do I support discrimination against homosexuals in my country? No. Korea is not my country, and neither you nor I nor ANYBODY else ( other than a Korean) have ANY right to comment on the culture of a country that they a merely visiting. To do so is the height of ethnocentrism. |
I'm glad I have resident status then. I can criticize all I want. I can also pass on my wife's criticisms (she's Korean, by the way, grandma). And so can many others who are not just visiting.
Sparkles*_* |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| tommynomad wrote: |
I'd say respect for people's differences, and tolerance are excellent yardsticks of a culture's advancement. |
Agreed. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| What an arrogant, ignorant racist. Who are you to determine what should be "universal truth"? |
I can't take this guy seriously. He transports me back to my Canadian University Press days...
C'mon take off the earthshoes for a second and admit things like female circumcision and discrimination based on sex/race/sexual orientation are probably not a good thing in any culture. |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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I am kind of curious W.T. Carl. When South Africa was under the rule of Apartheid was that considered cultural? Were other nation's outrages and sanctions not justified because we have no right to impose our values on other nations? What about China commiting Genocide in Tibet? Or Sudan commiting genocide in Darfur? Are these things cultural as well and in your opinion "sacred cows" that can't be touched and are above any criticism by us so called "Western fascists." Is it ethnocentrism for me to be outraged that there was no legal age sexually in Cambodia until very recently? Pedophilia and Child pornography are wrong as the truly innocent are harmed. However by your logic, my ethnocentrism is wrong so I couldn't possibly criticize them.
Your way of thinking leads to intellectual paralysis. Who is really ignorant here? |
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Zenpickle
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Location: Anyang -- Bisan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Ironic that we're being called "Western fascists" when one of the basic qualities of fascism is scapegoating a minority group, be it Jews, Gypsies, or gays. |
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tommynomad
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Location: on the move
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| neither you nor I nor ANYBODY else ( other than a Korean) have ANY right to comment on the culture of a country that they a merely visiting. |
That is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen here on Dave's (and I've seen a few). Not only do you contradict yourself ("visiting?" what about Koreans living elsewhere? what about foreign-born residents?), but you're endorsing cultural relativism and the suppression of free speech.
I've learned plenty from my travels. Ideas I take with me everywhere I go. I tell people how well Korea does high-speed rail. I tell people how great the technology is here. I also tell Koreans that obeying traffic signals works elsewhere, to the benefit of all. Through the environmental club of which I'm a member, I help educate people about better systems of garbage disposal in other countries. Seeing that a group of people elsewhere does something in a safer or cleaner, or more egalitarian manner is an opportunity to learn. Your comments suggest you see it as a reason to resist and isolate. I see us as one people, on one planet. That kinship gives me hope for peace, progress, and sharing.
What about apartheid, WTC? What about genital mutilation? What about revenge gang rape? What about genocide? Are these all to be excused (or as you suggest, ignored) on the basis of something as flimsy as 'culture'?
Your comments are anti-egalitarian, antiglobal, anti-educational and counterprogressive. I actually hope you're a troll, because [hyperbole] I fear for a planet in which people who seriously believe tripe like that can breed [/hyperbole]. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Some tool wrote
| Quote: |
| Do I support discrimination against homosexuals in my country? No. Korea is not my country, and neither you nor I nor ANYBODY else ( other than a Korean) have ANY right to comment on the culture of a country that they a merely visiting. To do so is the height of ethnocentrism. |
 what a crock of crap!
What is your country?
So what you are saying is that no one has the right to comment on the Nazis treatment of Jews during WWII?
No one has the right to comment on Saddam Husseins attacks on Kuwait?
No one has the right to comment on Kim Jong Ils tyranny?
We should all be thankful that W T Carl (WT=white trash?) is not in any position of power as any and all freedoms of information or press would be quickly squashed beneath his jackboot!
Pretty stupid thinking IMO, without people going out and making informed comments that might open peoples eyes to 5000 years of racism and hatred the world would be a much different and worse place to live in. |
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vlcupper
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Oddly one of the positives about this idea in Korean society that homosexuality doesn't exist here is men and boys don't have much homophobia in terms of male/male interaction and interaction with their GFs. To wit, boys and men don't get paranoid in the west with that idea like "if I do x, people will think I'm gay!"
So, I notice boys in my class engage in social grooming. Teenage boys will sit on each other's lap on a crowded subway. Men will wear the same flowered shirt as their GF and don't get all paranoid about holding her purse.
It's kind of refreshing once you get over your western shock and awe.
Anyway, Korea has a long way to go before it joins Blue State America/Canada Sans Alberta/Scandinavia in terms of liberal, democratic thought. |
One of my friends had two students in his school that were caught 69ing. Since they were both boys, I guess it was heterosexual play, right? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| What an arrogant, ignorant racist. Who are you to determine what should be "universal truth"? |
I can't take this guy seriously. He transports me back to my Canadian University Press days...
C'mon take off the earthshoes for a second and admit things like female circumcision and discrimination based on sex/race/sexual orientation are probably not a good thing in any culture. |
I spent a year as an elected official for my student union (with the left) and must admit that the kind of moral relativism you cite is half the reason I am now a libertarian. Well said. |
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