Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Butterfly]

King of Kwangju addressed a lot of your retorts better than I could. That you have criticized the foundations of Korean society is something that you, of course, are entirely free to do. That is what this forum is for. And that other countries have greater shortcomings in the way they treat their female citizens, does not mean that Korea should not come under the spotlight. Indeed, women's role in Korean society is very much predetermined, and women here, unless they are particularly brilliant, usually have to make a choice between career and marriage. I have met a lot of women who resent having to make that choice, and many who have chosen the former forfeiting their chance to be wives and mothers. I have the greatest resepct for them.

You used the "Lonely Planet' as your source, which in turn only sited one example of an unhappilty married woman! So I'll break my own rule and use Mi-ok (Not her real name) as mine, who is sat right next to me. Works as a part-time TOEIC teacher at our academy, has a one-year old son whom her Mother-in-Law takes care of when she is working, she seeminlgy loves her (Korean) husband very much. With the support from her in-laws she and her husband are able to earn a double income and they are often away on trips together to the countryside and overseas. She's a very happily married Korean woman.

To again paraphrase the King of Kwangju, behind closed doors, the ajuma is the backbone of this society; their role, not just their bodies, are what makes society in Korea function.

I made no mention of first, developing, or third world. Surely, in the treatment of it's citizens, the developmental stage of a country is neither here nor there.

You see, from our western standpoint we always come from the view that our societies are perfect when they are not. We dream and imagine that the women in our societies are 'free' when they are not. It's like the Bush rhetoric of recent months, constantly preaching 'freedom and democracy', the true opium of the people, when in truth how much of the American electorate truly feels 'free'. We don't practice what we preach. I don't know about you, but my Mum stayed at home and cooked and cleaned when I grew up (I'm in my early thirties), she had no choice since who was going to take care of me and my sister? She works now, but insists she wouldn't have had it any other way. Now most of my friends who are married are similar, their wives seemingly happy. I'm British, but maybe Europe is backward too, don't know.

Essentially Korea has faults, yes. It's very hard for Korean women to express themselves, and they are expected to be subserviant (though I believe this is a pre-marriage phenomenon!). But are there really any tangible acts of government, under pressure from the international feminist lobby, that could be made to change Korean society more than has already been achieved by Korean women in recent years? Perhaps you can spell these out for me, because the laws of equality already exist in the Korean legal system.

I taught an advanced business English class last month. Mostly women in my class, included advertising executives, architects, international merchandisers, bankers. It seems the Korean sisters are doin' it for themselves, as I said, Korea is going to be just fine.

***In the light of more information provided by the brilliant Steroidmaximus below, please look very closely at the link he provided. It seems your assumptions about Korean women marrying foreigners in their droves, are completely and utterly, false....****

[steroidmaximus]

ahem. . .

You're lack of sources is no doubt due to the fact you did no research.

Beatnik said:

[Tiberious aka Sparkles]

You quote the Lonely Planet guidebook and a columnist for the Korean Herald, and then try to pass on like your writing such groundbreaking stuff. That's not reporting (and you claim you're a journalist? Bring on the Pulitzer ). That's recycling.

So, let's get this straight on the scorecard: Koreans are dirty. Korean women are prostitues. Korean women are opressed and Korean men are savages. Supposedly there ARE (and more coming, you state at the start of your "article") other articles written by you that portray Korea in a more flattering light. I'd like to see them. Post a link.

Your little writing hobby is getting a tad annoying. I'm a Canadian man married to a Korean woman, and I can tell you that the reason we hooked up wasn't because she was sick of all the opression from her mean male counterparts. In fact, she and the majority of the other Korean women I've talked to all had the impression -- sometimes mistaken, often not -- that foreign men were all horndogs looking for a good time. Where does all this "I wish some white hunky adonis will someday swoop down from above (or from a hagwon) and rescue me from a life of thankless servitude" blather come from? Do you get out much?

Buy the Way (tm), I'd be interested to learn how old you are. Just curious, I guess. I'd also like to know if you are a frequent poster using a second handle (my guess is GWOW -- pure conjecture on my part).

Should I also be worried that my wife used to turn tricks? I mean, she's gorgeous, well made up, young and dresses nice. SHE MUST HAVE BEEN IN THE "SERVICE" INDUSTRY. I'm calling her right now to confront her about her past transgressions.

Sparkles*_* (will pull a Tom Waits on anyone who actually does infer that his wife was a hooker)

[On the other hand]

Starperson: Okay, so everyone becomes obese on their own free will, so discrimination against the overweight is no big deal in your books(despite your own admission that some people might have no choice in the matter). Well, then, what about people born with severe physical disabilities? They, too, might find that there aren't alot of hot dates lined up for them. Why? Because, in many cultures(the west included) those with certain physical disabilities just aren't seen as attractive by most people. That may sound brutal, but I dare you to tell me that it's not true. I see no moral difference between some men in Korea thinking that they would never want to marry a 35 year old woman, and people in the west thinking that they'd never want to marry a person who was born with a severe facial disfigurement and no limbs. In both cases, it is subjective standards of beauty being applied. The only difference is that our male feminist messiahs feel obliged to come to Korea and champion the rights of Korean women, rather than stay at home and convince their compatriots to be a bit more open-minded about the physically challenged.
By the way, apartheid fell in South Africa not because of heart-wrenching speeches from foreigners, but because of economic sanctions which compelled the government to change its policies. Since the problem in Korea is not government policies, but voluntarily held social attitudes, it is difficult to see how economic sanctions would work. So. what we are left with, so far as outside influence goes, is the heart-wrenching speeches from foreigners, the last group of people the Confucian Big Daddies are likely to listen to.

[Beatnik009]

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Some useful and enlightening points, questions and arguments coming to light. This is the benefit of forums like these - where collective experience invariably carries more weight than individual experience.

The Marriage and Divorce statistics link posted by steroidmaximus is key. Yes, the Lonely Planet is wrong. It is not true that 80 percent of foreign weddings are Korean female to Western male.

In 2002 by far the single biggest group was Korean men to Chinese women. Korean women to US men made up a substantial number, almost a quarter of all Korean female to foreign male, but nothing like 80 percent. I think it was reasonable of me to put some faith in the LP report, the author has lived here on and off for years, and his co-author is a Korean woman. But I shall be wary of it in future - thanks for the heads up.

But I fail to see the "finger pointing and white knight syndrome." Do I say that it is up to white people or outsiders exclusively to push for change in Korean society? I do not - I say only that a collaboration on all fronts, a sort of "total onslaught" against the consciousness which leads to the Madonna and *beep* syndrome would be welcome. That is up to Korean women and those men who like Mr Choi deplore it, and foreigners concerned about the suffering of others - easily avoidable suffering, incidentally.

But 'steroid' raises a good point - what role do outsiders play in tackling abuses inside other societies? In cases where the abuses are clearcut, such as Apartheid South Africa or, I dare say, Iraq and other dictatorships, the case is easier to make.

Where abuses of power are more subtle and lie in less overt cultural attitudes, they are not easy to isolate and challenge. But does that mean doing nothing. Reports like mine are little more than hand-wringing, but maybe that's not a completely useless part of the process. A useful course of action is general consciousness raising, criticism, lobbying for legislative change, media coverage, the whole gambit. I reject the accusation of finger-pointing and white knight syndrome, and steroid does not make his case persuasively.

Butterfly says we in the west "always make the case that we are perfect when we are not." I don't think "we" make that case at all and I certainly do not in this report or any other. Indeed, I acknowledge we are not perfect. Must we be perfect first before criticising others? If I steal your pencil and in retaliation you burn down my house, do I have the right to be aggrieved? I think so.

Surely it is the degree of an action, the scale of a phenomenon that matters. It is manifestly false to say that women's rights and their lot generally in the US, Canada, western Europe, Australia, NZ and Scandinavia are anything like as bad as they are in Korea.

Butterfly acknowledges that women's roles here are predetermined, it is hard for them to express themselves and they are expected to be subservient. To some extent that still exists in the west, but nothing like the degree it does here. King of Kwangju suggests we give Korea time to change. Okay, good point, but I counter by saying that there are other forces at work in Korea, to wit Neo-Confucianism bred in the bone that MIGHT make the rate of progress far slower than the west. Is it okay to just wait for history to take its course, without giving it a nudge or a push or a shove? I say no - push it we must.

Butterfly, it was not the Lonely Planet that wrote about the miserable sister, it was a letter in the Korea Herald in April this year.

You and the King of Kwangju argue that behind closed doors it is the ajumma who runs things. What things? Control of the grocery spending? The choice of which hogwon the kids go to? Where they picnic this weekend? I am willing to bet that more than 90 percent of critical decisions are made entirely by men, in running this country and shaping its society at the domestic level.

Your arguments are facile and - far more obviously than you accuse me of - based entirely on conjecture and amplification of thin anecdotal evidence into general conclusions. How do you know what goes on behind closed doors?

King of Kwangju argues tentatively in favour of hierarchy and Confucianism. In theory they have something to recommend them, but in practise, in this society at least, they overwhelmingly act against the freedom to shape personal identity, to grow toward self-actualization, in emancipation of the human spirit.

Gord talks of "slippery slope arguments, false comparatives, comedy and metaphor to make up for lack of research etc." Show me - where are the slippery slope arguments, what are the false comparatives? And here is no comedy as far as I can see, not in this part three anyway.

A good question asked is Butterfly's about what "tangible acts of government" could be undertaken to improve things. I don't know - I am not that familiar with the law. In recent years there have been improvements, for example men do not automatically win custody in divorce, and there are others I cannot put my finger on right now.

I have just seen Tiberious's response. TaS, you jumped in feet first with your claim that one in 15 is a ridiculously high estimate of Korean women involved in prostitution, and then when Weatherman posted Joongang Ilbo reports showing that as many as 500,000 Korean women are in the sex industry at any time, five times higher than the US by the way, and at least 10 percent, all of a sudden you were too busy to respond. Don't tell me we have an Emperor without any clothes.

Tiberious - IF THE JOONGANG REPORT IS ACCURATE - your wife (and my girlfriend) have a one-in-ten chance of having been paid for sex at least once. That's pretty good odds AGAINST the likelihood.

How old am I? I am 44. I have posted my real name, which is David Beattie, I live in Daejeon and I welcome an opportunity to meet you if you so wish, and over a beer or three to talk long and hard about the pros and cons of this society and any other. Or just shoot the breeze generally, sport, music, you name it. But don't get me started on Wal-Mart - you think I am on my high horse about this, huh, ain't seen nothin' yet.

I think you'll find me a friendly, positive person with a history of political and social activism. I have many western Korean friends, men and women, have had a Korean girlfriend for 18 months and, yes, I get out a lot. Don't take my word for it - I have a spare bedroom at my place. You and your wife are welcome to stay for a night, we'll go out and you can make up your mind yourself. (It is also true that I am a dirty leftie).

[Starperson]

On the other hand:

[sid]

[Pyongshin Sangja]

Actually, I like Beatnik's posts. I don't quite get the apartheid reference, but Korea has a lot of catching up to do, there is no way around that. It is not speculation, it is a fact that a lot of people here are aware of and are trying to do something about. Abortion is only the beginning. Korean men are fish out of water in any other country. Even the locals think so. Including me.

[On the other hand]

Pyongshin Sangja wrote: "Korean men are fish out of water in any other country".
Yeah, I'm sure the Saudis and the Iranians are really outraged by the Korean mistreatement of women.

[Tiberious aka Sparkles]

[Butterfly]

I've sat down to respond several times but I really don't know where to begin. I'm utterly flabberghasted by your response.

In short you built your argument on a false premise, that Korean women were marrying western men on a massive scale. Steroid maximus provided you with one link which completely destroyed your original premise. Your ONLY decent source was discredited.

Then you continue with exactly the same conclusions as if nothing has happened.

Then you state that my post was built on circumstantial evidence, when your whole line of writing is built on your own guesswork, and circumstantial evidence.

Show us something other than your own subjective, opinionated ramblings. You say 'now we are getting somewhere' but I rather think we have gotten nowhere!

I'll admit to not having any sources myself, in my claim that Korean women are not as oppressed and downtrodden as you purport, but then you have yet to provide any statistics or information to substantiate you claims. Neither have I, but I didn't write the first post. You assume that there is a generally accepted premise that Western women are treated better than Korean women, there isn't, I still think that is under question.

I think the reason several people have found your posts so irritating, is that you start your posts in this refined journalese, as though that which follows is going to be ground breaking and interesting, like the leader article in the Observer magazine or something, and then you descend into a subjective rant. 'Boo frickedy hoo' indeed....

I like your nickname, Beatnick, and like Kerouac your writing seems to have no past, no future and no sources. You base everything on that which is immediately around you. You however, are making some really serious claims, so your work ought to be a bit more corroborated than it is.

GIVE US SOME FACTS DADDIO!

[desultude]

I've been watching Women in Love on Arirang. The complexity of the situation for women here is illustrated fairly well, if not in an exagerated and ficticious way. The interesting thing is how the women go about getting what they want.

Its not an optimal situation here. Reading Korean folk tales gives an indication of at least some progress in the last few hundred years. In one story that I read, the author blithly said that the father, who was awaiting the birth of a son so that the murder of his own father could be avenged, stabbed the baby girl to death and waited until the next child was a son. I understand that part of the disproportionate number of little boys is a product of sex identification of the fetus, followed by the abortion of the girls. I met a man who had three children, but intended to only have one- but it took three trys to yield a boy.

Things will change here slowly- as I said before, at least in part because women will become more valued due to their scarcity. Also, young women will not want to entirely give up their own aspirations to tend to their sons and inlaws.

I think that some of you are being rather hard and reactive to Beatnik's posting. Yes, he overgeneralizes, and his arguments might not be airtight, but is he so entirely wrong about gender inequality here?

I have no interest whatsoever in Korea bashing. I think that the violence and discrimination against women in the United States, and in most of the other parts of the world is barbaric and unconscionable. The idea of a society that is free of racial and gender prejudice is just that, still only an idea, and one that there is not much agreement on in terms of degree and resolution. But these things don't mean that I have to smell the merde here and pretend that it is roses.

[ratslash]

interesting post for me to read as i have a korean girlfriend who will hopefully, one day, be my wife.

we met in auckland. she was learning english, i was working in a travel agents. we fell in love. i left my job and came out here to be with her. i got a bit paranoid, well not paranoid, just plain worried, that now that we are in korea she will start, you know, liking korean men. then i saw how they treat korean women. how firkin rude they can be. how so many of them spend so much time in internet parlours playing stupid online games and smoking themselves into an early grave instead of being out socialising and trying to find the loves of their lives. i asked my girlfriend "does she want to be with a korean man now that we are in korea?" she lay there and laughed (quite hysterically!) at me. she said she "loves me and only wants to be with me forever (aaaahhhhh -bless!) and that she just simply doesn't fancy korean men." from what i have seen so far - i don't blame her.....

lets be perfectly frank, korean women are stunning. i mean, you go on the subway, and near enuff every woman on the train is drop dead gorgeous (if you are on a diet there is no harm looking at the menu....!) the more these women get educated and learn english (someone wrote earlier that some korean women learn english to find a husband. i have to agree...) the more in sh*t korean men will be.

but...

i also read in the korean herald that there is a "new breed" of korean male coming through the system that is called life. sensitive males. caring and considerate. (where i ask??!?!? but nevermind. the herald knows best...) they went onto say though that this new found 'sensitivity' could backfire as the guys who are trying to be more caring may take it too far and become wimpy!

i dunno what is going to happen. i'm just glad at the moment that the korean society, inparticular korean males, are they way they are because, basically, i can sleep easy at night knowing that i have no potential competition for my girlfriend....!

later people. the good will come out.....

[jg]

Hey all,

I agree that Beatnik009's reporting skills ought to be called into question if he, having been in-country for 18 months, can do no better than the Lonely Planet (wtf?) and the local English language paper, which may be well written, but certainly there are better (or at least other) sources available to someone who is serious about journalism. I doubt that many of us will posit that the finest writing done on national culture in our homelands is done in anything other than the predominant local language... laziness, especially wih an (increasingly irritated) captive audience is bogus, Beatnik009!

However, I don't think any of you are quite so personally implicated by his reporting, especially if you hold his style in such low regard. Everyone with a Korean girlfriend cannot take his articles and apply them (with requisite outrage) to their beloved. Again, the holes in his style are gaping, laughable occasionally. However, there is no one who, by dint of dating/marrying a local, is an expert on women in Korean society - is it really that easy to obtain such vast knowledge? You cannot fault him for not doing his homework and then say "my muffin ain't like that, are ya honey? See, and my muffin is representative of the rest?" Thats sorta pot n' kettle...

It makes me uncomfortable, too, to think that MY muffin is covered by his shoddiness, but that doesn't necessarily make MY muffin the Korean everywoman (tempted though I am to think so). Ha! I am not so vain... I hope Mr. B becomes less knowledgeable and puts in some earnest, real work. He might become a decent writer yet, and his noble intentions could bear some writing to match. Better than more of the drivel on this board about Koreans and their shallow, rockheaded ways. I think we all agree that yes, women everywhere face sexism, but to what varying degrees, how much IN KOREA and how is in manifested? This board is often enough indicative of it, with the often mannish and neanderthal postings by gleeful adolescents lucky enough to be alive and horny in the land of the morning calm.

All suffering comes from grasping indeed...

[Medic]

Somewhere it's quoted that Korean men are marrying a lot of Chinese women. I might add that they are marrying kypos (Korean chinese) not ethnic Chinese.

No one's mentioned anything about the custody of the children of the divorce cases in the last 20 years. Are the new changes in the laws, or leniency in the laws going to be retroactive. There are a lot of divorced women floating around out there who haven't seen their kids in years, nor are they ever likely too.

Marriage in Korea used to be a prison or the equivalent of signing your own death warant. Daugter's in law were literally treated like slaves, and were made to support the parents in law completely. If the parents in law happened to become sick they worked to their death to tend them if necessary.