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this whole "Reunification of Korea" argument
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats part of the flaw in South Korean thinking. They always assume and think that North Korea and everything up there just becomes theres. Its like North Korea's land and resourced are there natural entitlement, despite what North Korea might think.

Its flawed thinking. If anyone with any kind of power whatsover in North Korea, there is no way they would even consider just walking away from it one day because a foreign power 'South Korea' wants all their land and resources. Even if they do speak the same language.

Its interesting how South Korea can't imagine it any other way. Particularly ironic because they have the U.S. support that they can't imagine it any other way. Without the U.S. support, you can pretty much guarantee North Korea would instead completely take over South Korea instead and probably very easily.
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ulsanchris



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read a book not too long ago by a korean about korea and its people and it covered reunification. AT one point in the book it stated that reunification would make korea an economic powerhouse and put it into the G7, by combining S. Korea's technical know how and N. Korea's resources. I"ve heard since than that N. korea has some iron mines and a few other resources. Later on in hte book it says how the cost of reunification would crush the s. korea economy. The author said that reunification would have to be a long and slow process. THe author put none of the blame on the US for the continued seperation of korea and put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the presidents of N. Korea.

H and T there are few economic benefits for the s. koreans making stuff in n. korea at the moment. For one the infrastructure is extremely limited. I think direct transport between the two countries is forbidden so that adds to transportation costs. Also there is very little energy to run the plants. Also the productivity of the n. koreans is extremely low. S. korean companies i have heard find it very frustrating to do business in korea. I imagine the only reason they are doing business there is because the S. korean government wants them to do business there. NOt because they can remain competitive against the Chinese.
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jvalmer



Joined: 06 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VanIslander wrote:
They also say the north has always been jealous of the power and wealth of the south through times of common rule and in times of hunger. They say regional differences are only overcome in the efforts to maintain their common language and culture in defense against outsiders.


The historical conflict between north and south is not even an issue (especially when compared with other countries). Considering that people have been crossing the two sides for 2000 or so years. About 25% of people in the South have direct roots in the north (grandfather, father, etc). The guy who lost to Roh in the elections is from the North, the founder of Hyundai 'stole' a cow from his father and headed south during the Korean War, many older S Koreans were born in the North. The historical differences between north and south is like how South Koreans view people from Jeolla province. At the end of the day, South Korean will always consider people from Jeolla and North Korea as part of the Korean family.
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Ilsanman



Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:34 am    Post subject: yes Reply with quote

Just 1 point. I disagree with what someone posted earlier. I think if there was a war now between the north and south (without intervention) the south would win.

Sure the south has a lot of conscripts, but the people of the north are underequipped, underfed, and demoralized people. KJI can barely afford to feed his army, let alone equip them with anything modern.
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tokki



Joined: 26 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The South would win. They dont spend a lot on their national defense, in terms of % of GDP, but in real spending they spend far more than the north. The North has old and very inferior equipment, oil shortages, food shortages. The size of the army doesnt matter, its the quality that counts, and the South has a better equipped army. The only question is the soldiers themselves. The indoctrinated but poorly trained and underfd DPRK soldier, against the well fed, well trained Southern conscript who is still a momma's boy who loves Starcraft and has never gotten laid.
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the_beaver



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tokki wrote:
The only question is the soldiers themselves. The indoctrinated but poorly trained and underfd DPRK soldier, against the well fed, well trained Southern conscript who is still a momma's boy who loves Starcraft and has never gotten laid.


The DPRK soldiers are better trained (10 year military service).

And you won't find many Southern conscripts who are virgins. Their friends usually buy them a send-off *beep* with a prostitute.
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tokki



Joined: 26 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_beaver wrote:
tokki wrote:
The only question is the soldiers themselves. The indoctrinated but poorly trained and underfd DPRK soldier, against the well fed, well trained Southern conscript who is still a momma's boy who loves Starcraft and has never gotten laid.


The DPRK soldiers are better trained (10 year military service).

And you won't find many Southern conscripts who are virgins. Their friends usually buy them a send-off *beep* with a prostitute.


Hookers dont count. If you cant get it without having to pay for it, yer a virgin.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always wonder if Kyushu and Busan / kyongsangdo could be made into a country. They're always cooperative with each other when the two capitals are squabbling over something petty, and a lot of them share common ancestors and linguistic characteristics. Busan certainly has a lot more in common with Fukuoka than it doesn with Pyongyang.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mithridates wrote:
I always wonder if Kyushu and Busan / kyongsangdo could be made into a country. They're always cooperative with each other when the two capitals are squabbling over something petty, and a lot of them share common ancestors and linguistic characteristics. Busan certainly has a lot more in common with Fukuoka than it doesn with Pyongyang.

That would be one really weird country! Busan & Fukuoka together as one country! Weird thought.
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andrew



Joined: 30 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....

Last edited by andrew on Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indiercj wrote:
I don't think Koreans don't want to pay the cost for the reunification or at least for the economical aids needed to stabilize the North. They voted for Kim Dae Jung, and elected Roh to continue pursuing the 'sunshine policy' overcoming all the buzz that major newspapers made to criticize it as an act of "pe ju gi". If most koreans did not want to pay anything they should have elected Lee instead but as we all know they did not.
I think the main reason some people suspect the US for not wanting the two Koreas to get close to each other is that throughout modern history the US government has been continuously supporting the right wing hard-liners including a couple of military dictators. It seems like the protection of free capitalism in the region has always been their #1 priority over democratic freedom or reunification.


Live in North Korea. Please. In North Korea the sky is any colour you want it to be. It's a dream world. I want to to live there. I think there is so much freedom there. In North Korea I can say that Kim Jong Ill is a bad person. In South Korea I have no vote, and I have no economic freedom. South Korea is the poorest country in the world. Horrible! I love North Korea. I can even access websites such as this north of the border. I hate South Korea where the cabinet is full of white people. Indeed, I will go to Pyongyang next week. Defection;Sexy baby. I love Kim Jong Ill. Freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please go and live up there. White people are evil. You can participate in such threads up there. Kim Jomj Ill the dear leader will permit it. He is a god. Koreans are the greatest people in the world.

PS. You are now experiencing your country's greatest moment right now. Forget King Sejong. He was nothing. I am greater than him. However, the US is evil and Kim Il Sung is better than any of us.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:
indiercj wrote:
I don't think Koreans don't want to pay the cost for the reunification or at least for the economical aids needed to stabilize the North. They voted for Kim Dae Jung, and elected Roh to continue pursuing the 'sunshine policy' overcoming all the buzz that major newspapers made to criticize it as an act of "pe ju gi". If most koreans did not want to pay anything they should have elected Lee instead but as we all know they did not.
I think the main reason some people suspect the US for not wanting the two Koreas to get close to each other is that throughout modern history the US government has been continuously supporting the right wing hard-liners including a couple of military dictators. It seems like the protection of free capitalism in the region has always been their #1 priority over democratic freedom or reunification.


Live in North Korea. Please. In North Korea the sky is any colour you want it to be. It's a dream world. I want to to live there. I think there is so much freedom there. In North Korea I can say that Kim Jong Ill is a bad person. In South Korea I have no vote, and I have no economic freedom. South Korea is the poorest country in the world. Horrible! I love North Korea. I can even access websites such as this north of the border. I hate South Korea where the cabinet is full of white people. Indeed, I will go to Pyongyang next week. Defection;Sexy baby. I love Kim Jong Ill. Freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please go and live up there. White people are evil. You can participate in such threads up there. Kim Jomj Ill the dear leader will permit it. He is a god. Koreans are the greatest people in the world.

PS. You are now experiencing your country's greatest moment right now. Forget King Sejong. He was nothing. I am greater than him. However, the, US is evil and Kim Il Sung is better than any of us.

GB, I think indiercj made some good points and your response looks very lame and loutish. He didn't say a word in this post about N Korea being a nice place, and instead he tried to asseret something else, that SK is willing to bear the costs of putting their house in order and getting the familky under one roof again.

You might have something intelligent to say abnout it as well, but we'll never know from the post you just made here.
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Derrek



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiger Beer wrote:
Thats part of the flaw in South Korean thinking. They always assume and think that North Korea and everything up there just becomes theres. Its like North Korea's land and resourced are there natural entitlement, despite what North Korea might think.

Its flawed thinking. If anyone with any kind of power whatsover in North Korea, there is no way they would even consider just walking away from it one day because a foreign power 'South Korea' wants all their land and resources. Even if they do speak the same language.

Its interesting how South Korea can't imagine it any other way.



Exactly.

And they assume that North Korea would just up and join their views.

The funny thing is, the NK people think the same way about SK. Each side thinks the other would just drop everything to rally to the opposite point of view!

Case in point: Someone posted the story about the NK special ops guys who snuck into SK to kill a gov't figure (I forget who) some time ago. They encountered a couple of farmers whom they "re-educated" in a short time, then left. The stupid special-ops guys were certain the SK farmers would totally "see the light" and left them after a few hours. The farmers notified the police, and the NK Special Ops guys were caught.

If NK and SK reunified, we'd see another war soon after the honeymoon was over and people starting butting heads again.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
Gwangjuboy wrote:
indiercj wrote:
I don't think Koreans don't want to pay the cost for the reunification or at least for the economical aids needed to stabilize the North. They voted for Kim Dae Jung, and elected Roh to continue pursuing the 'sunshine policy' overcoming all the buzz that major newspapers made to criticize it as an act of "pe ju gi". If most koreans did not want to pay anything they should have elected Lee instead but as we all know they did not.
I think the main reason some people suspect the US for not wanting the two Koreas to get close to each other is that throughout modern history the US government has been continuously supporting the right wing hard-liners including a couple of military dictators. It seems like the protection of free capitalism in the region has always been their #1 priority over democratic freedom or reunification.


Live in North Korea. Please. In North Korea the sky is any colour you want it to be. It's a dream world. I want to to live there. I think there is so much freedom there. In North Korea I can say that Kim Jong Ill is a bad person. In South Korea I have no vote, and I have no economic freedom. South Korea is the poorest country in the world. Horrible! I love North Korea. I can even access websites such as this north of the border. I hate South Korea where the cabinet is full of white people. Indeed, I will go to Pyongyang next week. Defection;Sexy baby. I love Kim Jong Ill. Freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please go and live up there. White people are evil. You can participate in such threads up there. Kim Jomj Ill the dear leader will permit it. He is a god. Koreans are the greatest people in the world.

PS. You are now experiencing your country's greatest moment right now. Forget King Sejong. He was nothing. I am greater than him. However, the, US is evil and Kim Il Sung is better than any of us.

GB, I think indiercj made some good points and your response looks very lame and loutish. He didn't say a word in this post about N Korea being a nice place, and instead he tried to asseret something else, that SK is willing to bear the costs of putting their house in order and getting the familky under one roof again.

You might have something intelligent to say abnout it as well, but we'll never know from the post you just made here.


That's because it offends your skewed perspective of the world. Anything that is counter to your US conspiracy theories is often deemed unintelligent. Indiercj asserted that the US is a big hindrance to reunification. It's a stupid position to take. I know far more than you about America's influence in Korea as shown by some of our debates in other threads. (you know, the ones where you had to lie about what I said to claw back credibility) Indiercj is one of these barmy left wing nationalist fanatics who genuinely believes that the US is the biggest obstacle to Korea's prospective reunification. I have never seen him criticise the Kim dynasty north of the border despite their atrocious human rights record, and their absolute refusal to reunify unless Korea is brought together on their terms (Leninland with a heavy dose of nationalism). These are far bigger obstacles to reunification. In 60 years the social, cultural, economic, and political dichotomy between the two Koreas has grown so much so that a cozy reunion is far from realistic. They are two different countries whose only ties are language and a claimed history. For as long as Korea has been influential the two have been apart. He can't be taken seriously on the subject, and although rather lacking on the knowledge front here Bobster, I am surprised that you stuck an oar in on behalf of this lightweight.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:
The Bobster wrote:
Gwangjuboy wrote:
indiercj wrote:
I don't think Koreans don't want to pay the cost for the reunification or at least for the economical aids needed to stabilize the North. They voted for Kim Dae Jung, and elected Roh to continue pursuing the 'sunshine policy' overcoming all the buzz that major newspapers made to criticize it as an act of "pe ju gi". If most koreans did not want to pay anything they should have elected Lee instead but as we all know they did not.
I think the main reason some people suspect the US for not wanting the two Koreas to get close to each other is that throughout modern history the US government has been continuously supporting the right wing hard-liners including a couple of military dictators. It seems like the protection of free capitalism in the region has always been their #1 priority over democratic freedom or reunification.


Live in North Korea. Please. In North Korea the sky is any colour you want it to be. It's a dream world. I want to to live there. I think there is so much freedom there. In North Korea I can say that Kim Jong Ill is a bad person. In South Korea I have no vote, and I have no economic freedom. South Korea is the poorest country in the world. Horrible! I love North Korea. I can even access websites such as this north of the border. I hate South Korea where the cabinet is full of white people. Indeed, I will go to Pyongyang next week. Defection;Sexy baby. I love Kim Jong Ill. Freedom!!!!!!!!!

Please go and live up there. White people are evil. You can participate in such threads up there. Kim Jomj Ill the dear leader will permit it. He is a god. Koreans are the greatest people in the world.

PS. You are now experiencing your country's greatest moment right now. Forget King Sejong. He was nothing. I am greater than him. However, the, US is evil and Kim Il Sung is better than any of us.

GB, I think indiercj made some good points and your response looks very lame and loutish. He didn't say a word in this post about N Korea being a nice place, and instead he tried to assert something else, that SK is willing to bear the costs of putting their house in order and getting the familky under one roof again.

You might have something intelligent to say about it as well, but we'll never know from the post you just made here.


That's because it offends your skewed perspective of the world. Anything that is counter to your US conspiracy theories is often deemed unintelligent.

Actually, I have no US conspiracy theories that I'm aware of but thanks for the offer, don't think I need any today. Conspiracies are things that people try to hide, and the US policy to SK is pretty much on the surface. Is my perspective skewed? Not sure, and you haven't shown anything like that.

Quote:
Indiercj asserted that the US is a big hindrance to reunification. It's a stupid position to take.

It's what I meant about you possibly having something intelligent to say, but declining to show it. Why is it stupid? What instances can you point to and say, here, this one place where the US tried to help reunify the peninsula? The other side can provide numerous instances and examples where this and other administrations have either directly opposed the Sunshine Policy or at best gave it lukewarm treatment.

Now you can argue about whether the Sunshine Policy is or was the best or smartest way to bring about reunification, but it's very hard to argue that this was not one of its goals. If you think the US disrerard and discouraging response to it was not a hindrance to reunification, why not give some reasons for thinking so? If it is as stupid as you say, it shouldn't be hard to say why.

Quote:
I know far more than you about America's influence in Korea as shown by some of our debates in other threads. (you know, the ones where you had to lie about what I said to claw back credibility)

You might actually know more than me about this topic, but once again, you have not shown it and your response to indiercj above does indeed appear very lame. Loutish, too, yes.

(In addition it is typographically irresponsible - do you suppose would you mind editing out some of those exclamation points, or at least hit the space bar a few times between them, so the page width of this thread doesn't get pushed so far out of whack? I know I'd appreciate it.)

If memory serves, the "lie" you refer to here is from an argument you and I had, omigod, almost 2 years ago, and you impress me all the blazes with your long memory of an imagined slight. What I remember is that you said that S Africa was not a democracy prior to Nelson Mandela because it was a country existing under apartheid. Well, it really was a democracy despite the massive disenfranchisement of the black population there, because it had multi-party elections and power changed hands due to them. I asked if you thoght America was not a democracy while slavery was practiced and you either declined to respond or you said, yes of course it was - when I draw the obvious parallel between these things you got very angry, especially when some others on that thread said, yeah, that was a stupid thing for gwangjuboy to say - it appears you are still angry, but I can't be blamed when people say silly things and refuse to retract them when they are shown that way.

You need to get over this. It was a long time ago, and I'd have forgotten it a long time ago except that you keep bringing it up whenever the two of us comein contact with each other. I'm surprised you do keep reminding us all of that episode - as I say, you ended up looking pretty dumb.

Quote:
Indiercj is one of these barmy left wing nationalist fanatics who genuinely believes that the US is the biggest obstacle to Korea's prospective reunification.

Yes, it would appear he believes this, though whether he is barmy or whether his ideas lack merit, is again, something you have declined to show. The issue is important enough to deserve an intelligent response, and the people who come here deserve that much respect asd well - you have not provided an intelligent response and you are displaying disrespect to the forum.

Quote:
I have never seen him criticise the Kim dynasty north of the border despite their atrocious human rights record, and their absolute refusal to reunify unless Korea is brought together on their terms (Leninland with a heavy dose of nationalism).

The lack of criticism for the North means something important, I see ... should we go through your backlog of posts and make an inventory of things you have neglected to criticize? Kind of a wierd argument, but hey, whatever ...

Quote:
These are far bigger obstacles to reunification. In 60 years the social, cultural, economic, and political dichotomy between the two Koreas has grown so much so that a cozy reunion is far from realistic.

You may be right, but many Koreans I speak to talk seriously of a "one state / two systems approach. I personally do think it's a bit pie-in-the-sky, but there is a precedent with regards to Hong Kong, and I could be wrong niiy I think China has made similar noises in the direction of Taipei in efforts to entice them back to the mainland. In the case of Hong Kong, most people are unhappy with the level of control over freedom of expression that Beijing has displayed, which was inevitable I guess due to the relative sixe - S Korea, however, is arguably the stronger of the tow halves, and it would seem far more likely that a process of democratization would occur in the North rather than see a large number of S Koreas start embracing juche.

Quote:
They are two different countries whose only ties are language and a claimed history. For as long as Korea has been influential the two have been apart. He can't be taken seriously on the subject, and although rather lacking on the knowledge front here Bobster, I am surprised that you stuck an oar in on behalf of this lightweight.

Yoiu make it sound as if language and a common history prior to 1945 are small things and not important. I think many Korean people disagree with that.

By the way, I'm not sure I was defending indiercj's viewpoint so much as criticizing the mode with which you chose to post your response to him.

(Please look into that matter with the exclamation marks, okay?)
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