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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Ajarn Miguk
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Location: TDY As Assigned
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 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject: Canons |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
It is not possible to renounce it. He may think he is a Protestant, but in the eyes of God and the Catholic Church, he is Catholic. That does not mean he is considered to be a "good Catholic" or "practicing Catholic." He is considered to be a Catholic who is not in communion with the Church.
But, technically one is not baptised Catholic. He is baptised as a Christian in the Catholic Church. All Christians, Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox are baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Ghost). So, it does not matter because he was baptised as a Christian, and probably his Protestant minister would say he would not have to be baptised at the Protestant church. Likewise, if a baptised Protestant converts to Catholicism, he or she would not have to be baptised again. He or she would only have to be confirmed. He is considered Catholic because he was baptised by a priest, but technicaly was baptised Christian. |
You may want to check your final paragraph above. I believe you will find it to be inaccurate.
I am referring specifically to the "baptised by a priest" part of your last sentence.
What "priest?" |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| When one is baptised into Christianity, there is an ontological change to one's soul. This change is caused by God. Only God can undo this. Therefore, if one ceases to believe in Christianity, he or she is no longer a practicing Christian. What the Church is saying "being always a Catholic" is that ontological change has not been reversed. Of course, one has the freedom to believe whatever one wishes, it is just the change to the soul which cannot be reversed. |
Kangnamdragon, I know you're just telling us what the church teaches, but this seems unbelievably nutty to me. Why would the RC church even want to count non-believers among its "membership"? And I'm sure I've seen Catholics argue that Hitler wasn't a "real" Catholic in debates of this sort on the Internet. But then in debates about how many members the church has around the world, they trot out incredibly inflated numbers that do include non-believers, as well as people who go to church but don't have any real commitment to the religion. If Phaedrus and his wife are genuinely interested in Catholicism, they should take a course so they understand what they're getting into and can make an informed decision. Why would anyone want to define themselves according to a set of beliefs they don't share? |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
You may want to check your final paragraph above. I believe you will find it to be inaccurate.
I am referring specifically to the "baptised by a priest" part of your last sentence.
What "priest?" |
There is no inaccuracy. The "priest" is the one who acts in the name of God.
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| Why would the RC church even want to count non-believers among its "membership"? |
If your son stops speaking to you , is he still your son?
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| Why would anyone want to define themselves according to a set of beliefs they don't share |
?
Do not confuse human beliefs with supernatural essence. One may define him or herself in any manner one wishes. One has the freedom to choose one's only beliefs. Baptism is not a belief system. It is a change to the soul. When a person is said to be " always Christian" that does not refer to one's beliefs. It refers to the change one received in one's soul. |
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Ajarn Miguk
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Location: TDY As Assigned
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject: valid |
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kangnamdragon wrote:
Quote (Ajarn Miguk):
You may want to check your final paragraph above. I believe you will find it to be inaccurate.
I am referring specifically to the "baptised by a priest" part of your last sentence.
What "priest?"
There is no inaccuracy. The "priest" is the one who acts in the name of God.
It is your contention then that any "priest" or anyone "acting in the name of God" can perform the sacrament of baptism and it would ipso facto be considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church?
Be careful now.
BTW, as an aside, not all Protestant churches invoke the Trinity at the time of baptism. While contrary to what you believe to be the case, this is, in fact, true. |
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wild sphere
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Location: i might as well be on mars 'cause that's how far away i feel from you.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| guangho wrote: |
| Wild Sphere, there is a haggie job on the edge of Seoul with your name on it |
oh, when did they finally fire you?
anyhoot, thanks but that's more your line of work. if you ask them nicely, perhaps they'll take you back.  |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:25 am Post subject: Re: valid |
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| Ajarn Miguk wrote: |
kangnamdragon wrote:
Quote (Ajarn Miguk):
You may want to check your final paragraph above. I believe you will find it to be inaccurate.
I am referring specifically to the "baptised by a priest" part of your last sentence.
What "priest?"
There is no inaccuracy. The "priest" is the one who acts in the name of God.
It is your contention then that any "priest" or anyone "acting in the name of God" can perform the sacrament of baptism and it would ipso facto be considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church?
Be careful now.
BTW, as an aside, not all Protestant churches invoke the Trinity at the time of baptism. While contrary to what you believe to be the case, this is, in fact, true. |
Anyone may baptise in the event of an emergency. The ordinary form of baptism in the Catholic Church is done by a priest or deacon. Yet, anyone baptised by a Protestant minister in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is considered a Christian by the Catholic Church. |
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Ajarn Miguk
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Location: TDY As Assigned
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: Re: valid |
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| kangnamdragon wrote: |
| Ajarn Miguk wrote: |
kangnamdragon wrote:
Quote (Ajarn Miguk):
You may want to check your final paragraph above. I believe you will find it to be inaccurate.
I am referring specifically to the "baptised by a priest" part of your last sentence.
What "priest?"
There is no inaccuracy. The "priest" is the one who acts in the name of God.
It is your contention then that any "priest" or anyone "acting in the name of God" can perform the sacrament of baptism and it would ipso facto be considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church?
Be careful now.
BTW, as an aside, not all Protestant churches invoke the Trinity at the time of baptism. While contrary to what you believe to be the case, this is, in fact, true. |
Anyone may baptise in the event of an emergency. The ordinary form of baptism in the Catholic Church is done by a priest or deacon. Yet, anyone baptised by a Protestant minister in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is considered a Christian by the Catholic Church. |
The question is not whether "anyone can baptise in an emergency," but rather whether said baptism would be considered valid in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church? Also, even in an emergent situation, there are conditions which have to be adhered to and which would preclude "anyone" from so baptizing, but I'll save that one for later.
You have now qualified your earlier statement as to which Protestant ministers might perform valid baptisms in the eyes of the Roman Catholic church, i.e., "Yet, anyone baptised by a Protestant minister in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is considered a Christian by the Catholic Church."
Christian, possibly. Validly baptized in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church, possibly not.
For it's not only the Protestants whose baptisms might be questioned by the Roman Catholic Church:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_1_29/ai_n8709004
It seems the Church has a problem on its hands as you and others would seemingly invalidate the earlier baptisms performed by a regularly ordained Roman Catholic priest, in good standing, administering a sacrament of the Church.
What to do? There is, after all, only one baptism, right? |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Catholic |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
I have a question. No, I didn't check to see if the Vatican has an FAQ site.
I was baptized when I was a baby. I went to Catholic church maybe five times in my life, and was never confirmed or anything. Am I Catholic? |
According to them, yes.
Corporal, I will never recant-the pure gospel wins every time.
HTH |
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kelly
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| I have a question, I want to get my son baptized as I'm Catholic and want to raise him as one here too. But the churches here will not baptize him unless his dad becomes Catholic, and unless we join a church here, and attend counseling for a few months. Now my question is why should his dad have to change religion just so we can get our son baptized? As it is he's now almost 3mths old and not baptized something I'm not happy about at all.... |
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diablo3
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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I think it is more in line with "How can you make sure your children will go to Church regularly?". Many non-practising parents do have a hard time to baptise their kids because how do they make sure their children go to church regularly while the parents do not go regularly?
Similar and different issues occur with muslims also. |
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riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:33 am Post subject: |
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What about excommunication?
Are you still Catholic? |
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kelly
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Well I attend church every Sunday, and if my son was baptized I would be sure to take him to church with me, but looks like it won't happen until we leave Korea, and go back to the US and become community and church members, I just feel that its unfair to my son, why should he be denied becoming a Catholic just because his dad isn't, somehow it just doesn't seem right. |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| kelly wrote: |
| I have a question, I want to get my son baptized as I'm Catholic and want to raise him as one here too. But the churches here will not baptize him unless his dad becomes Catholic, and unless we join a church here, and attend counseling for a few months. Now my question is why should his dad have to change religion just so we can get our son baptized? As it is he's now almost 3mths old and not baptized something I'm not happy about at all.... |
Your husband should not have to become Catholic. You should take classes and go to mass though, but there is no requirement for your husband to be Catholic. My sister's husband is not Catholic and her children are. Unfortunately, the church in Korea is a little "messed up" as many other things are here. Have you been in contact with the international parish in Hanam-dong? PM me if you need more assistance. |
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Konundrum
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| kelly wrote: |
| Well I attend church every Sunday, and if my son was baptized I would be sure to take him to church with me, but looks like it won't happen until we leave Korea, and go back to the US and become community and church members, I just feel that its unfair to my son, why should he be denied becoming a Catholic just because his dad isn't, somehow it just doesn't seem right. |
Why can't you take him to church? There are no restrictions on who can go into a given church or not. I was not/have not been baptised in any religion  , yet I attend church with my wife every Sunday. The clergy knows I'm not a card-carrying member of the congregation, but welcomes me and treats me like a Christian should treat a person. |
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kangnamdragon
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Konundrum wrote: |
| kelly wrote: |
| Well I attend church every Sunday, and if my son was baptized I would be sure to take him to church with me, but looks like it won't happen until we leave Korea, and go back to the US and become community and church members, I just feel that its unfair to my son, why should he be denied becoming a Catholic just because his dad isn't, somehow it just doesn't seem right. |
Why can't you take him to church? There are no restrictions on who can go into a given church or not. I was not/have not been baptised in any religion , yet I attend church with my wife every Sunday. The clergy knows I'm not a card-carrying member of the congregation, but welcomes me and treats me like a Christian should treat a person. |
She can take him to church. You did not read both her posts. |
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