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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Dispatched wrote: |
| So VanIslander, what's your take on 9/11? A dozen protestors taking a stand? |
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Dispatched
Joined: 08 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, a bit off the cuff.
What I mean is that you seem to have admiration for people who have the balls to stand up and act for what they believe. Isn't that what the terrorists did?
Myself, I would prefer people didn't give a shit and didnt act on anything. If the world was full of apathy then no one would attack anyone else. Hard to command an army when the soldiers don't buy what you are selling. Obviously it's never going to happen but still it's better than having some head strong person 'taking a stand'. Invariably people never have full information yet people seem happy to act on partial information to the detriment of others. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: |
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I don't have any more time today to explain the difference between whiners and protesters and terrorists.
Believe me there is a big difference between each. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Hey, the bloody finger pic wasn't even blurred on the front page of the Chosun Ilbo. It was in living color... ick. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| no, i can't recall a time when the native peoples of canada, australia or america self-mutilated to protest. they still have legitimate claims to land, reparations and official apologies respectively. |
Well, the Mohawks in Quebec waged an armed fight when what they regarded as a piece of their land being annexed to put in a golf course. A Quebec provincial cop even got killed in the ensuing gunfight.
That's not precisely the same thing as cutting off your finger, but I'd say it's in the same ballpark, in terms of a willingness to put yourself in harm's way in order to defend what you think is yours. And if anything I'd rate the adjumma's actions higher on moral grounds, as unlike the Mohawks she didn't harm anyone but herself. |
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trigger123
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Location: TALKING TO STRANGERS, IN A BETTER PLACE
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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dispatched wrote:
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| You don't have rights to anything if you get ya assed kicked in a war. Japan conquored Korea and the Allies told them to give it back. What did Korea do?? Nothing, what do they deserve? Nothing. |
best give france, poland, hungary, the czech republic and north africa back to the germans, eh fritz? |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
Whiners do nothing but complain, complain, complain... while doing nothing else.
Protesters take action and do something, even if you don't believe it amounts to enough.
I have always respected protesters. I have trouble standing whiners. |
OK, I understand you so far. My biggest mistake was in judging these protesters by the standards that you set for others. Now here are two scenarios for you to consider.
Scenario 1: After months of fruitless negotiation with her boss, an expat finally throws in the towel, packs up and does a runner. She then posts on Dave's explaining (as objectively as possible) precisely why this particular hagwon is corrupt, and precisely why it should be avoided. Misogyny is part of the issue. The ex-teacher then eloquently advocates Western-style sexual equality in her argument, and states that Korea should learn to catch up. Would you respect her actions?
Scenario 2: Two foreign teachers are killed in a traffic accident, due to the recklessness of at least one driver (pick any vehicle). Dozens of expats protest in public, rallying for enforcement of traffic laws. Some bilingual teachers carry slogans that say things to the effect of "Catch up with the rest of the world" in Korean. Teachers carrying these slogans are assaulted by a couple of sensitive Korean passers-by, and one teacher who defends himself is thrown into prison - an action which only has the effect of heating up the following protest. Several protesting teachers are fired for "losing face" for their hagwons; subsequently the hagwons in question are mercilessly eviscerated on countless message boards. Would you respect the actions of these teachers? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| no, i can't recall a time when the native peoples of canada, australia or america self-mutilated to protest. they still have legitimate claims to land, reparations and official apologies respectively. |
Well, the Mohawks in Quebec waged an armed fight when what they regarded as a piece of their land being annexed to put in a golf course. A Quebec provincial cop even got killed in the ensuing gunfight.
That's not precisely the same thing as cutting off your finger, but I'd say it's in the same ballpark, in terms of a willingness to put yourself in harm's way in order to defend what you think is yours. And if anything I'd rate the adjumma's actions higher on moral grounds, as unlike the Mohawks she didn't harm anyone but herself. |
To put things in perspective, remember that Japan hasn't sent its troups to Dokdo, however Oka had already begun clearing the land for the golf course.
Besides, the PQ screwed up. They knew many of the Mohawk Warriors were former Vietnam war vets, and instead of negotiating, they charged the position as if they were chasing kids on skateboards. The PQ officer who was killed may even have been accidentally shot by another officer, according to some reports. Cops have no business playing GI Joe.
By the way, after reading the following article, I'm inclined to say Japan has no legal right to Dokdo because it lost the islands after it was defeated by the Allied Forces, who gave the islands to Korea. Maybe Korea needs to use a similar argument as the Russians use when dealing with disputes about islands with Japan, "You started a war. You lost. The Americans took it. They gave it to us. It's now ours to keep." On that argument alone, I think they win.
Besides, the fishermen of Ullung-do have claimed it for several hundred years. If it belongs to the fishermen of Ullung-do, then it must belong to Korea. Even more interesting is the fact the Japanese govenment withdrew its claims to the islands in 1877, stating that they recognized Dokdo as being Korean territory. They only changed their minds in 1905, when they began taking the steps to annex Korea, and then again in 1952 when Korea was still at war.
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200503/kt2005031616153311950.htm |
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Dispatched
Joined: 08 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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dispatched wrote:
Quote:
You don't have rights to anything if you get ya assed kicked in a war. Japan conquored Korea and the Allies told them to give it back. What did Korea do?? Nothing, what do they deserve? Nothing.
best give france, poland, hungary, the czech republic and north africa back to the germans, eh fritz? |
Well no, the Allies told the Germans to give back those respective countries. If France now came out and said they have some historical right to an island the Germans took from them 50 years ago then they too should get nothing. |
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trigger123
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Location: TALKING TO STRANGERS, IN A BETTER PLACE
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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dispatched wrote:
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| Well no, the Allies told the Germans to give back those respective countries. If France now came out and said they have some historical right to an island the Germans took from them 50 years ago then they too should get nothing. |
so to extend this stunning piece of logic and apply it to the tokdo scenario, tokdo was returned to the Koreans, upon order of the Allies, over 50 years ago. Now, 50 years later, the Japanese are asserting their 'governence' of the islands, so they should get nothing? yes?
to rewind, the earliest claim to the island is korean, several japanese texts from the 1500's state it is Korean, and the islands were only claimed 100 years ago by Imperial Japan on the request of a single Japanese fisherman.
It was stolen by Japan.
It was returned to Korea.
end of story...... |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| trigger123 wrote: |
so to extend this stunning piece of logic and apply it to the tokdo scenario, tokdo was returned to the Koreans, upon order of the Allies, over 50 years ago. Now, 50 years later, the Japanese are asserting their 'governence' of the islands, so they should get nothing? yes?
to rewind, the earliest claim to the island is korean, several japanese texts from the 1500's state it is Korean, and the islands were only claimed 100 years ago by Imperial Japan on the request of a single Japanese fisherman.
It was stolen by Japan.
It was returned to Korea.
end of story...... |
Sorry, but you are wrong about Takeshima being given by the allies to Korea. In all the arguments I have heard for Korea, never have I heard them claim it was given to Korea by the allies as you claim. If you have evidence, lets see it. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| trigger123 wrote: |
so to extend this stunning piece of logic and apply it to the tokdo scenario, tokdo was returned to the Koreans, upon order of the Allies, over 50 years ago. Now, 50 years later, the Japanese are asserting their 'governence' of the islands, so they should get nothing? yes?
to rewind, the earliest claim to the island is korean, several japanese texts from the 1500's state it is Korean, and the islands were only claimed 100 years ago by Imperial Japan on the request of a single Japanese fisherman.
It was stolen by Japan.
It was returned to Korea.
end of story...... |
Sorry, but you are wrong about Takeshima being given by the allies to Korea. In all the arguments I have heard for Korea, never have I heard them claim it was given to Korea by the allies as you claim. If you have evidence, lets see it. |
Here.
| hollywoodaction wrote: |
| http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200503/kt2005031616153311950.htm |
I thought it was obvious enough. |
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trigger123
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Location: TALKING TO STRANGERS, IN A BETTER PLACE
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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thanks hollywood, that was one of the articles i would present to back up my argument.
shakuhachi - i never said the Allies gave Tokdo to Korea, i said they returned it, i.e. it belongs to korea, it was stolen and it was returned. if i used the verb 'to give' this might imply that the islands were a gift or something that did not belong to the recipient..
the fact that you use the japanese word for Tokdo and Ullongdo, and that regular users of this forum know your sympathy lies with Japan, indicates that your views not particularly unbiased.
right wing Japanese are trying to flex their old Imperial muscles, just as they would have done 100 years ago. don't get drawn in by their misinterpretation of history.
the weight of evidence is overwhelmingly with the koreans here. people can have their own opinions on the appropriateness of the korean style of protest, but those islands are undeniably korea's, not japan's. |
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Lyrt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Location: Somewhere in France
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:38 am Post subject: |
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That is false.
The allies never returned/gave the Liancourt shitty rocks to anybody. The final version of the San Francisco Peace Treaty excludes them from both Korea and Japan. Just type in Google ��San Francisco Peace Treaty�� + Takeshima or Tokdo. Still, I will easily find Korean and Japanese sites that claim they were ��naturally�� returned to their ��undisputable�� owner by the Allies. You provided a Korean example, here��s a Japanese one: http://www.glocom.org/media_reviews/n_review/20040506_news_review213/
I'll make coffee. Have fun. |
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Lyrt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Location: Somewhere in France
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| just because wrote: |
I noticed nobody had shown the picture of the old woman chopping her pinkie off.
Even the finger gets the blur in Korea..... |
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