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SCHOOL OWNERS CHECKING YOUR APARTMENT
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kangnamdragon



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grotto wrote:
Quote:
It is not YOUR apartment. The school owns or rents it. They are responsible for it legally. The school should be able to check it when you are home after prearranging a time. Many teachers cause a lot of damage and they should be checked up on every few months to see if the apartment is ok. A teacher could just trash an apartment and run away, leaving the school a large expense.


Quite wrong Kangnam

The apartment is included in your contract. The fact that your school pays for it is immaterial. It is no different than you paying rent yourself...Legally you can be held liable for any damage you cause while living there.

If a school wishes to check on the apartment they should give at least a weeks notice and it should be at a time where you are home and is convenient to you. Just as a landlord anywhere else in the world would do.


Hollywoodaction wrote:


That's nonsense. Korea is very much like North America in the sense that a good landlord would never dare dropping by an appartment without having good reason to do so. It's just another example of a shady employer taking advantage of the fact foreigners often don't know how things are properly done here.


The hagwon owner is NOT the landlord. He is the tenant. He is legally responsible for damage to the apartment. Your name is not on the lease. You have no legal responsibility. You are there as his guest.
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Grotto



Joined: 21 Mar 2004

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldnt say that I am the owners guest. I would say that you are an employee. As the apartment is part of your wage....

I have no problem with them coming to my apartment when they have given proper notice and I am home. But when they invade my privacy and enter my home without permission that is not right.

In Alberta:

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:
Living There > Landlord's Right to Enter Property

My landlady served me with a notice that she was coming into my apartment today to fix the dishwasher. When I got home from work, I found a different person here who I had never met before. Since I live by myself, I was a little taken aback and concerned. Shouldn��t my landlady have told me that it was going to be someone else who came in to do the repairs?

Your landlady can ask others to enter the property on her behalf to carry out repairs. She can pass on this right to enter to others. You might want to talk to your landlady about the repair person if you had concerns and request that she give you the name of the person who will be coming on future occasions.



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When we moved in to our apartment, the inspection report showed quite a few deficiencies. The landlord said that he would take care of them, but it has become a bit of a problem. The landlord is calling us every other day to say that he is going to be working in the apartment. Because he has a day job, he comes in the evening, which is very disruptive to my family. There are still jobs to be done. Do I have to put up with him coming so often?


Not necessarily. A landlord is required to allow tenants peaceful enjoyment of their property and to provide premises that are habitable. It is possible that by continually arriving at short intervals to carry out repairs, your landlord is breaking one or both of those commitments. You could apply to court on the basis that the landlord is not allowing you peaceful enjoyment of your property. Alternatively, it could be that the premises are not habitable and you could request relief such as a reduction in rent for the period of inconvenience. Before you take this step, you might wish to consider talking to your landlord to see if there is another way to resolve the matter.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When is my landlord allowed to come into my property?


In some situations your landlord is allowed to enter your property with notice to you, even if you do not agree that he can enter. Notice must be given at least 24 hours before the time the landlord is going to enter the premises and the time of entry must be between 8 am and 8 pm on a day that is not a holiday. The situations are:

to inspect the property to consider repairs;
to carry out repairs;
to show the property, or to allow a realtor to show the property to people who might buy it or need to carry out a mortgage inspection;
to show the property to people who might want to rent it. Prospective renters can only be shown the property in the last month of a fixed term tenancy or after a periodic tenancy has been terminated; and
to carry out pest control measures in order that the premises meet public health standards.
A landlord can enter the rented property without any notice or agreement when an emergency requires him or her to enter, or where a tenant has abandoned the property.

Now Kangnam a tenant is also classified as someone who lives in the rental property. So yes the person who rents or leases an apartment is a tenant but so is the person living there.

I would argue that the apartment is part of our pay and therefore we are the sub leasee. The hogwan owner leases the apartment and sublets it to us. Therefore he would be our landlord.
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kangnamdragon



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have no problem with them coming to my apartment when they have given proper notice and I am home. But when they invade my privacy and enter my home without permission that is not right.


Of course your boss should get permission before coming. I never said otherwise. He or she should also come when you are home.

I just don't agree that the teacher is legally responsible for any damage. Legally, the boss is the tenant.
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Derrek



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got an idea... why don't you guys, who have apartments provided, all trash your apartments and let us know what happens?
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Grotto



Joined: 21 Mar 2004

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kangnamdragon wrote
Quote:
I just don't agree that the teacher is legally responsible for any damage. Legally, the boss is the tenant.


I missed that one, sorry.

Legally the teacher may not be responsible(although personally I disagree) but morally they certainly are.

If someone intentionally trashes an apartment they should be held responsible for any damages. Although there is a great difference between trashing an apartment and normal wear and tear.
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kangnamdragon



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Kangnam, Seoul, Korea

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also negligence. I have seen teachers who left their key under the mat. They were robbed and blamed the school for it because the school made them live there. Rolling Eyes Yes, it was a safe neighborhood and a good apartment. They then changed the locks and wanted the school to pay for the new locks.
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peppermint



Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kangnamdragon wrote:
There is also negligence. I have seen teachers who left their key under the mat. They were robbed and blamed the school for it because the school made them live there. Rolling Eyes Yes, it was a safe neighborhood and a good apartment. They then changed the locks and wanted the school to pay for the new locks.


Cultural difference. Totally normal to leave the key under the mat in some smaller towns Razz

What it comes down to is this. if you want to be 100% sure no one from the school is entering your apartment- don't tell them where you live ( ie get your own place)
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JongnoGuru



Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peppermint wrote:
What it comes down to is this. if you want to be 100% sure no one from the school is entering your apartment- don't tell them where you live ( ie get your own place)

Yes, that could solve things with the school, but then you're still back to the 'my landlord walked in while i was sleeping with my...' problems.

I did 'search' but didn't find what I think I saw on Dave's about a year ago... it was a poll on housing. (I started one myself, but it was a poll on type of housing -- apt., villa, house, officetel, etc.). What I'm curious about is, what percentage of teachers "get their own place", what percentage are provided housing by employers, what percentage aren't offered housing or a stipend, etc. Wasn't there such a poll, and I'm just unable to track it down? Or have I mis-remembered that?
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Bozo Yoroshiku



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Outside ???'s house with a pair of binoculars

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JongnoGuru wrote:
peppermint wrote:
get your own place)[/b]

Yes, that could solve things with the school, but then you're still back to the 'my landlord walked in while i was sleeping with my...' problems.

I have my own place, and my landlady is a saint. I've been in this apartment for 6 years, and she always given 48-hours WRITTEN notice that she's coming to visit my apartment. Also, it's always only been for checking the water meter, maybe twice a year, and even then she just stands in the "landing" while I check the meter for her. I don't even know if she HAS a copy of my key (she didn't give me a spare when I lost my key temporarily once).

I'll be sad to leave this place in June... gotta get a bigger place. Too. Much. Stuff. Sad

--boz
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Hollywoodaction



Joined: 02 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kangnamdragon wrote:
Grotto wrote:
Quote:
It is not YOUR apartment. The school owns or rents it. They are responsible for it legally. The school should be able to check it when you are home after prearranging a time. Many teachers cause a lot of damage and they should be checked up on every few months to see if the apartment is ok. A teacher could just trash an apartment and run away, leaving the school a large expense.


Quite wrong Kangnam

The apartment is included in your contract. The fact that your school pays for it is immaterial. It is no different than you paying rent yourself...Legally you can be held liable for any damage you cause while living there.

If a school wishes to check on the apartment they should give at least a weeks notice and it should be at a time where you are home and is convenient to you. Just as a landlord anywhere else in the world would do.


Hollywoodaction wrote:


That's nonsense. Korea is very much like North America in the sense that a good landlord would never dare dropping by an appartment without having good reason to do so. It's just another example of a shady employer taking advantage of the fact foreigners often don't know how things are properly done here.


The hagwon owner is NOT the landlord. He is the tenant. He is legally responsible for damage to the apartment. Your name is not on the lease. You have no legal responsibility. You are there as his guest.

Don't you think that if it stipulates in the contract that he or she will provide you with housing, that is essentially a lease? It is your home. There is such a thing as laws that protect your privacy in your home in Korea. If you insist on believing they are the tenant, then explain to me why it is that they cannot legally throw you out on the curb without first giving you one month's notice if you've been fired. You may think they can, but they simply can't. There's a thread somewhere else on this board where we were discussing this last week.

By the way, of course an employee can be held legally responsible if they seriously damage the apartment. Why wouldn't they? And, unless someone is weilding a sledge-hammer, it would be very difficult to cause serious damage to most apartments that foreigners are provided with by their hagwons because they are essentially concrete boxes--we're not talking about my dad's house with hardwood floors and molding... far from it. My first home in Korea was a rat infested hole in the wall. My second and third were 6 pyong rooms (about the size of our smallest washroom in the house I grew up). Heck, my buddy lived in what used to be a storage locker. Being a home and business owner in Korea, I can assure you most damage to these apartments can be repaired with 200 000 won of wall paper and a 100000 won vinyl floor. It's not as if they weren't designed for that. Whenever someone buys an appartment, they usually strip it down to the concrete and have everything redone from top to bottom, or they simply slap on a new layer of wallpaper and change the flooring because mold is a big problem in Korean homes during the summer. Since it is so cheap to have a place redone, a good landlord will usually pay someone to do it before a new tenant moves in because nobody wants to move in an apartment with moldy wallpaper.

Stop making up stories to take the other side of the argument.
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JongnoGuru



Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hollywoodaction wrote:
Don't you think that if it stipulates in the contract that he or she will provide you with housing, that is essentially a lease? It is your home. There is such a thing as laws that protect your privacy in your home in Korea. ...
By the way, of course an employee can be held legally responsible if they seriously damage the apartment. Why wouldn't they? ...

I'm with you in that the actual occupant (teacher) enjoys the rights of tenancy, despite their name not being on the Landlord-Tenant Lease Agreement. However, from a landlord's perspective, the school has to assume the responsibilities of tenancy: paying rent and returning the property to its original condition upon expiration of the lease.

Speaking as the landlord, how the school (my tenant) goes about getting money out of its teachers to pay for repairs is entirely the school's business. They can extract a cleaning deposit, they can demand inspections, or they can play "catch me if you can" when their teachers' contracts are up. Makes no difference to me. I don't care, nor do I really want to hear about the foreign teachers or their legal responsibilities regarding repairs, because I've signed no lease with them.

If I'm a landlord and I'm doing a straightforward landlord-tenant contract, I'll set the deposit high enough to cover any damage a tenant might reasonably cause.

If I'm the employer and I'm leasing the property to provide to my foreign teachers, I'll either extract some sort of cleaning/repair deposit from the teachers (occupants, tenants, call them what you will) before they move in, or you can bet I'm going to be pushing the very limits of Korean law and common decency in terms of regular inspections, snooping and all-around irksomeness.

Give me a hefty deposit and I'm the Invisible Man. Give me no deposit and I'm Big Brother.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JongnoGuru wrote:
[
If I'm the employer and I'm leasing the property to provide to my foreign teachers, I'll either extract some sort of cleaning/repair deposit from the teachers (occupants, tenants, call them what you will) before they move in, or you can bet I'm going to be pushing the very limits of Korean law and common decency in terms of regular inspections, snooping and all-around irksomeness.

Give me a hefty deposit and I'm the Invisible Man. Give me no deposit and I'm Big Brother.



And then after all your foreign teachers ran away in the middle of their contracts, your school would soon get a very bad reputation and have trouble finding foreigners to work there or stay there.

If you were my employer, I would tell you what I told my last one who wanted to pull the same nonsense "24 hours notice" And then I would change the locks.
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Badmojo



Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Location: I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the end of the day, they're responsible for the place.

With notice, and when you're at home, there's nothing wrong with them checking the apartment.

I just take offense when they tell me to clean it.

Where do they get the balls big enough to ask me something like that?
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JongnoGuru



Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
JongnoGuru wrote:
[
If I'm the employer and I'm leasing the property to provide to my foreign teachers, I'll either extract some sort of cleaning/repair deposit from the teachers (occupants, tenants, call them what you will) before they move in, or you can bet I'm going to be pushing the very limits of Korean law and common decency in terms of regular inspections, snooping and all-around irksomeness.

Give me a hefty deposit and I'm the Invisible Man. Give me no deposit and I'm Big Brother.



And then after all your foreign teachers ran away in the middle of their contracts, your school would soon get a very bad reputation and have trouble finding foreigners to work there or stay there.

If you were my employer, I would tell you what I told my last one who wanted to pull the same nonsense "24 hours notice" And then I would change the locks.


If I'm the employer (not the landlord/owner) in this scenario, then it wouldn't matter to me if you changed the locks -- just so long as you accommodated regularly scheduled, pre-announced inspections. If that wasn't acceptable, then we'd have to look into a cleaning deposit.

As I asked in my first post on this thread, don't/can't schools use annual bonuses or serverance for this purpose? That would seem ideal, as the teacher wouldn't have to pony up extra funds from their own pocket, and the school & landlord would be covered for repairs if required. And in such case, there'd be no need for inspections. No good? Neutral
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