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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Actually, where I grew up it was more often used for divorced women  |
I used to think it was used more for lesbians. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| If women didn't really want to be labelled, they would use 'Ms' all the time-before and after marriage. |
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andrew
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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*****
Last edited by andrew on Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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iguanab
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| andrew wrote: |
| MS = Mississippi, where I come from. Most women I know NEVER use Ms. because it sounds ultra-feminist and man-hating. |
Let me see if I have this straight....because a woman chooses to keep her marital status to herself, she is a "man-hater"? Interesting logic....ergo, a man, who uses the title of "Mr.", is a "misogynist"? |
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Hyalucent
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: British North America
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| I just really miss the use of "Master" for unmarried men. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| iguanab wrote: |
| andrew wrote: |
| MS = Mississippi, where I come from. Most women I know NEVER use Ms. because it sounds ultra-feminist and man-hating. |
Let me see if I have this straight....because a woman chooses to keep her marital status to herself, she is a "man-hater"? Interesting logic....ergo, a man, who uses the title of "Mr.", is a "misogynist"? |
I think the key revelatory phrase in andrew's quote is "...Mississippi, where I come from. " In the Red States of America where I was raised they don't cotton much to the concept of civil rights, women's rights, or human rights and generally disdain those who do as a bunch of free-loadin' layabouts who don't want to work for a livin' or in this case as "ultra feminist" (I wonder if there's a word for 'ultra pro-human rights'?) and man-hating (OK, let's have a poll. How many of you ladies who use 'Ms.' hate men?) -- not to put to fine a point on it  . By saying that, I am not meaning to imply in any way that andrew would hold such benighted opinions though.
I'll stick my neck out a little further here and speculate that the chap who has lived 34 years without hearing "Ms." used is from the RSA or some culturally isolated place, and perhaps he has heard it used, but only sneeringly. Perhaps he will clarify that for us.
In any event, not having the neutral term, "Ms." to use means that to address a woman properly (in the formal style), one must know her marital status. This seems somewhat similar to the need that Koreans have to ask one a bunch of personal questions as soon as they meet you -- are you married? how old are you? how much money do you make? what is your religion? -- so that they can figure out how to relate to you properly in accordance with their hierarchical social structure.
I wonder how many men traveling, doing business, etc. in Asia would be a little miffed if it were required that everyone they met in any social situations know what their marital status is.
In any event, it should be a choice for women and, if speaking formally, I always call them "Ms." until they express a different preference.
But don't worry tzechuk, when speaking formally, I'll always call you, "Mrs. tzechuk" and when speaking informally, "Letty's mom."   |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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As a concept it's okay but as a word I don't like it.
Etymologically speaking we have this:
Mr = Master
Mrs = Mistress
Miss = Mistress
Ms = nothing
I tell my students to use Ms because, while you might be corrected with a smile, if you use the others you'll be corrected with a scowl. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
As a concept it's okay but as a word I don't like it.
Etymologically speaking we have this:
Mr = Master
Mrs = Mistress
Miss = Mistress
Ms = nothing
I tell my students to use Ms because, while you might be corrected with a smile, if you use the others you'll be corrected with a scowl. |
With me it depends. If it's a feminist, lesbian, or highly independent woman I use Miss or Mrs; if it's a conservative, domestic, or ultra-docile type I use Ms. Try the same with policeman/officer, fisherman/fisher, etc. Reactions provide a very good indicator of who's more and who's less mature than me.
Given that a few of your kids will end up in universities with very PC environments in America or Canada teach them Mrs/Miss and ________man. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| When I was a boy - along time ago - in the Southern part of the USA, the pronunciation was Miz for all women. Miz Mary Maude = single. Miz Truesdale = married. Spelling was the traditional Miss/Mrs, but it all sounded the same. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| gypsyfish wrote: |
| When I was a boy - along time ago - in the Southern part of the USA, the pronunciation was Miz for all women. Miz Mary Maude = single. Miz Truesdale = married. Spelling was the traditional Miss/Mrs, but it all sounded the same. |
There were probably many cases where there was a disconnect for me between a word that I heard used among my Carolina relatives (North) and a word that I might come across in a book.
One example that I can remember is the word 'liable' used in sentences like, "He's liable to end up in jail if he don't watch that drinkin' on Saturday nights."
The thing was they pronounced it, "loble" and it was quite awhile before I figured out it was the word, "liable." I don't think the word was used like that in Virginia where I grew up. |
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andrew
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:37 am Post subject: |
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.....
Last edited by andrew on Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: |
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The title Ms became popular in the mid-late '70's when women were striving to break through the "glass ceiling." In the States then, as in Korea now, it was VERY difficult for married women to get a job. It was ESPECIALLY difficult for divorced women. Feminists (and I use that word to mean "those who promote EQUALITY of the sexes") advocated the use of Ms so a woman's marital status wouldn't jeopardize her hireablity.
Today, many women keep their maiden names. Would you use Mrs with her maiden name? Not quite right. Miss? No...she's married! Ms is a viable solution to this problem.
I think that men don't quite understand the difference in the way a woman is treated if business associates (not friends, mind you) know of her marital status. It's a suble thing, but it's there! Men have never had to deal with this issue, since a Mr can be married or unmarried. And since marital status has NOTHING to do with the way a person performs his or her job, there is no need for anyone to know. Ms fits the bill!
If anyone is interested in the actual origins of Mrs., Miss, and Mr., check out this link (I feel like RR here! )
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19991021 |
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redbird
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| gypsyfish wrote: |
| When I was a boy - along time ago - in the Southern part of the USA, the pronunciation was Miz for all women. Miz Mary Maude = single. Miz Truesdale = married. Spelling was the traditional Miss/Mrs, but it all sounded the same. |
I can verify that this is true in Texas, too. Despite the "Red States of America" insult above, "Miz" is heard more often in the south than in the North IMO.
The exception in Texas, though, is primarily Hispanic schools, where female teachers are referred to as "Miss" by students where "Teacher" would be used elsewhere. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| andrew wrote: |
| But - we are a red state... |
As long as Diebold Corporation counts your votes, anyway.  |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| redbird wrote: |
I can verify that this is true in Texas, too. Despite the "Red States of America" insult above, "Miz" is heard more often in the south than in the North IMO. |
But truly, we all realize that it is heard so much in the South because that is the southern pronuniciation of "Mrs.," is it not?
Regarding my characterization of the RSA, I didn't mean everyone in Texas, of course. Jim Hightower and Molly Ivins are two of my favorite people and they're both native Texans currently living in Austin. I used to live in Austin myself. |
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