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UncleAlex
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:22 am Post subject: A Salary Increase ? |
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Who is going to raise the basic salary in order to attract certified
teachers to Korea? The government? Perhaps, but most hagwon
owners would find it hard to meet their budget? Very few owners
would be able to afford paying certified teachers the salary they'd
expect according to their credentials, especially the owners who
need more than one teacher. But, I wouldn't be surprised if the
Ministry of Education went ahead with this plan. It isn't concerened
with the welfare of private business. If school owners decide to
close shop and find a different line of business, so be it.  |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:21 am Post subject: Re: A Salary Increase ? |
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| UncleAlex wrote: |
| Who is going to raise the basic salary in order to attract certified teachers to Korea? |
Any employer that wants a certified teacher.
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| Perhaps, but most hagwon owners would find it hard to meet their budget? Very few owners would be able to afford paying certified teachers the salary they'd expect according to their credentials, especially the owners who need more than one teacher. |
That's probably the case. Oh well - I'm sure Korea will muddle through without English hogwons on every corner, with "teachers" pretending to teach (no, not all of them are like that), and students pretending to learn.
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| If school owners decide to close shop and find a different line of business, so be it. |
If the government decided the public schools should get serious about English education, and offered world-class money, conditions and benefits to attract world-class teachers - and stopped allowing the English education system in Korea to be managed by charlatans who know nothing and care even less about education - the country wouldn't need hogwons.
Current hogwon owners can start gambling dens or tabangs or something. Question for thought - many owners can't speak English. How is it they're able to attract customers for a product they themselves have never bought? Who buys cars from people who can't drive? |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| How many people with education degrees who have done practicums at North American / UK / Australian schools would put up with the *beep* at hogwans when they could teach at an international school or get a job in a remote part of Canada that is offering desperation-level wages? |
Many, I believe, though if you increase the wages and benefits and drastically reduce the hours, as I said in my post, it would look less like a hogwon as we know and love it.
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I don't think the hours would be such a huge problem, especially since for us prep is more or less optional whereas in English speaking countries there's heaps of it on tops of teaching. The wages would have to go above the $USD30,000 / year mark, which would shrink the number of hogwans considerably.
I still think that no matter what the pay, a lot more people would be on the plane back home after getting a real feel for all the BS here, as most people with an education certificate are looking for a good career whereas most of us are here because we want to live and work overseas and/or can't do anything with our degrees back home. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:05 am Post subject: |
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I was one of those "certified teacher" types in Korea for many years, almost two of those in the mid 90s at a hogwon that had a spotty reputation among teachers. It was never fly-home bad. The BS level's certainly up there in Korea, but it's not to be underestimated in schools "back home" either. Just different types of BS, not necessarily greater or less in quantity. I've never found it unbearable anywhere.
You hit it right on with the "they're looking for a good career" part. Korea needs to figure out how to offer that if they want certified teachers and let them grow in the system. Currently, they don't. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:08 am Post subject: |
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If the government decided the public schools should get serious about English education, and offered world-class money, conditions and benefits to attract world-class teachers - and stopped allowing the English education system in Korea to be managed by charlatans who know nothing and care even less about education - the country wouldn't need hogwons.
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If the government decided the public schools should get serious about English education, they would insist on universities turning out well-trained Korean ESL teachers. Think about it. How many foreign language teachers in the US/Canada/Britain/Australia/New Zealand are 'native speakers' of the language they teach? Very few.
One of the biggest ironies of the whole Korean ESL gig is that Korea doesn't produce foreign language teachers trained in modern pedagogy. So what do they do? They import thousands of foreigners who are not trained in modern pedagogy...and drain the money out of the economy at the same time. Sooner or later someone is going to figure this out.
It's the obsession with native speakers that creates the job market here. If Koreans get fed up enough with 'illegal teachers', drunks busting jaws and male prostitutes, that obsession may end.
The moral of the story: Make hay while the sun shines. |
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coolsage
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: The overcast afternoon of the soul
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
I was one of those "certified teacher" types in Korea for many years, almost two of those in the mid 90s at a hogwon that had a spotty reputation among teachers. It was never fly-home bad. The BS level's certainly up there in Korea, but it's not to be underestimated in schools "back home" either. Just different types of BS, not necessarily greater or less in quantity. I've never found it unbearable anywhere.
You hit it right on with the "they're looking for a good career" part. Korea needs to figure out how to offer that if they want certified teachers and let them grow in the system. Currently, they don't. |
My sentiments exactly. As a card-carrying certified teacher, I welcome any effort to weed out the cowboy teachers, the obvious impostors who tend to degrade the profession that some of us take seriously. Not that a B.Ed or an M.Ed. guarantees that the holder will be an effective educator (I needed to lose a lot of pre-conceived ideas when I hit these shores), but the implication is that one is familiar with the notion of methodology. I taught at a Korean teacher's college (kyodae). What those future teachers wanted most were materials that they could take to and use in their schools. This is the mandate: deliver the goods. If that's what you're up to, cheers. If you're priorities are paying down student loans, violating the local maidens, and saving up for a trip to Pattaya, then you should be learning the intricacies of handling the deep-fryer at Denny's, not attempting to do a task that is best left to those who have invested their energy, their money and a slice of their years into doing it right and well. |
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Canucksaram
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| My sentiments exactly. As a card-carrying certified teacher, I welcome any effort to weed out the cowboy teachers, the obvious impostors who tend to degrade the profession that some of us take seriously. Not that a B.Ed or an M.Ed. guarantees that the holder will be an effective educator (I needed to lose a lot of pre-conceived ideas when I hit these shores), but the implication is that one is familiar with the notion of methodology. I taught at a Korean teacher's college (kyodae). What those future teachers wanted most were materials that they could take to and use in their schools. This is the mandate: deliver the goods. If that's what you're up to, cheers. If you're priorities are paying down student loans, violating the local maidens, and saving up for a trip to Pattaya, then you should be learning the intricacies of handling the deep-fryer at Denny's, not attempting to do a task that is best left to those who have invested their energy, their money and a slice of their years into doing it right and well. |
Whose place is it to decree who should take up a spot at Denny's? Yours, coolsage? A so-called "card-carrying certified teacher"?
I hardly think so!
I once worked with a man that never had the money to finish his university studies. He volunteered his time and taught EFL and ESL students in Toronto to "train" himself and then came to Korea to work (illegally) at a hagwon owned by an aquaintance of his. After his first year at the hagwon (located in a provincial area) he moved to Seoul to "cowboy" it.
Is he a bad man? No!
Nor are any other people that are, like him, gifted with the talent to teach, whether formally qualified or not. The talent to teach is innate and cannot be learned in any school or institute, nor can it be acquired through any means of certification; the talent to teach simply exists or does not exist (though of course training applied to said talent will almost always result in a happy end!).
Does my talented friend deserve to be ridiculed (as is implicit in your post) as a zero-ambition fast food worker? Absolutely not!
Your arrogance towards your so-called "lessers" (i.e., non-"card-carrying certified teachers," and/or non-degreed teachers) speaks volumes about your readiness to judge others on the basis of appearance rather than that of substance or talent.
A full dollar of mine to every penny of yours says that my friend can help his students achieve more tangible and long-lasting results in their language learning than any of the so-called "card-carrying certified teachers" present in Korea that have "invested their energy, their money and a slice of their years" into "doing it right."
Go-getters coming out further ahead of those that rely largely, if not exclusively, upon "investing in the system" seem to always be hounded by cries of "sour grapes." |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:42 am Post subject: |
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My students tried the bait and switch-hidng behind a desk, trying to leave one behind.
They also tried it in a restroom that is no longer used that is behind the library facility, corporal-they tried leaving one behind, and then another.
Just like in that horrible movie with Ben Affleck and that other guy, Better Luck Next Time! |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| Imagine how much more illegal privates would pay! |
VanIslander, i salute you for trying to pass this one through.
It's April Fol's Day-everyone knows that there is no money to be made doing privates.
Privates are illegal. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Canucksaram wrote: |
| The talent to teach is innate and cannot be learned in any school or institute, nor can it be acquired through any means of certification... |
I was waiting for one of those "well, I know someone who isn't a certified teacher, who is excellent..", or "I once taught with a certified teacher who couldn't teach his way out of a box..." stories that always come up in these discussions, that are supposed to serve to minimize the worth of teacher training and accreditation. What took you so long?
| Quote: |
| Go-getters coming out further ahead of those that rely largely, if not exclusively, upon "investing in the system" seem to always be hounded by cries of "sour grapes." |
Teachers who have put in the time, sweat and money to improve their practice are also hounded by cries of "sour grapes" by those who have not - especially on the largely unaccredited "Korea board". |
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coolsage
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: The overcast afternoon of the soul
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Canucksaram wrote: |
| The talent to teach is innate and cannot be learned in any school or institute, nor can it be acquired through any means of certification... |
I was waiting for one of those "well, I know someone who isn't a certified teacher, who is excellent..", or "I once taught with a certified teacher who couldn't teach his way out of a box..." stories that always come up in these discussions, that are supposed to serve to minimize the worth of teacher training and accreditation. What took you so long?
| Quote: |
| Go-getters coming out further ahead of those that rely largely, if not exclusively, upon "investing in the system" seem to always be hounded by cries of "sour grapes." |
Teachers who have put in the time, sweat and money to improve their practice are also hounded by cries of "sour grapes" by those who have not - especially on the largely unaccredited "Korea board". |
Thank you, Lemon, for making a rebuttal unnecessary. Of course there will always be exceptions; some teachers are 'naturals', irrespective of credentials. But if this racket that we're in is going to be regarded as a profession or even an honorable craft, the bar needs to be raised. I don't know how that might be achieved, but if in the end the holder of a BA in beekeeping is discouraged from applying, standards will rise, the quality of the product will rise, and remuneration will rise accordingly. Have a splendid day. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Canucksaram wrote: |
| The talent to teach is innate and cannot be learned in any school or institute, nor can it be acquired through any means of certification... |
I was waiting for one of those "well, I know someone who isn't a certified teacher, who is excellent..", or "I once taught with a certified teacher who couldn't teach his way out of a box..." stories that always come up in these discussions, that are supposed to serve to minimize the worth of teacher training and accreditation. What took you so long?
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Point noted. The more educated is the more qualified, and rightly should be hired over someone who doesn't have accredited qualifications. However, in an industry as top-down and chaotic as the hagwon industry in Korea, really, what good will a background in teaching methology do? where curriculum is badly designed, material is innappropriate, and the educated teacher has little leeway in giving their opinion, then the teaching methology is near-useless.
Furthermore, how many Korean teachers in hagwons have teaching degrees and how much do they get paid? What are their typical teaching methologies?
I think before throwing more money at the problem and trying attracting higher-qualified teachers with more money, there are a lot more things that need to be done first to clean this industry up, most of them coming from the management and recruiting sides. As for foreign teachers, perhaps they should start on attracting and retaining quality people rather than going all the way for quality teachers.
Maybe this industry is so messed up the only way to go about making any meaningful change would be to shut down the industry altogether. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:41 am Post subject: |
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..And Lemon/CoolUsage, even if you disagree with my point above, do you not think that a BEd might be overkill for EFL-teaching? You guys (may have) made a personal choice to do EFL-teaching, but personally, if I was a career-minded person with a BEd or higher, I would aim higher and go for an international school or English immersion program, somewhere with an environment where I could teach a variety of subjects and deal with a variety of challenges.
How about CELTA? TEFL? Would you not accept that as those as qualifications? How much more money do you think Korea would have to throw at the foreign teacher's monthly salary to obtain people with these qualifications? |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| ..And Lemon/CoolUsage, even if you disagree with my point above, do you not think that a BEd might be overkill for EFL-teaching? |
Honestly, underkill. I have a BEd, and MEd and a CELTA and though the first two have both been useful, the CELTA has been way way more relevant and practical to what I've been doing / did in Korean ESL classrooms. It was a very very worthwhile month spent, and for what it was, it was a bargain. The BEd & MEd were only tangentially relevant.
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| How about CELTA? TEFL? Would you not accept that as those as qualifications? |
"TEFL"? Depends - some are fly-by-night, some are reputable. If I was the manager of a school I'd happily recognize a CELTA qualification, among others.
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| You guys (may have) made a personal choice to do EFL-teaching, but personally, if I was a career-minded person with a BEd or higher, I would aim higher and go for an international school or English immersion program, somewhere with an environment where I could teach a variety of subjects and deal with a variety of challenges. |
Many do. But there are lots of opportunities for EFL teachers beyond Korean hogwon teaching. Or Korea. And that's the point of my first post in this thread - here's what it would take to get qualified people to (re)consider Korea, from the point of view of one who has been lured away.
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| How much more money do you think Korea would have to throw at the foreign teacher's monthly salary to obtain people with these qualifications? |
Not just money. I gave a whole list (benefits, working conditions....) in a post above. But 24,000,000w/year is not going to cut it. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| coolsage wrote: |
| If you're priorities are paying down student loans, violating the local maidens, and saving up for a trip to Pattaya, then you should be learning the intricacies of handling the deep-fryer at Denny's, not attempting to do a task that is best left to those who have invested their energy, their money and a slice of their years into doing it right and well. |
You're priorities can be all those things and you could still be a great teacher.
I was taught be plety of good teachers but also plenty who had invested their energy, their money and a slice of their years into their job and were absolute shit, or such mental midgets that they shouldn't have been teaching anything but PE or kindergarten. |
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