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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: |
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I have done a lot of research in emergent literacy and immersion kindergarten. I would suspect that those professionals who are working in early childhood education would be offended to be called mental midgets...and I would suspect anyone who thought that kindie teachers were mental midgets probably wouldn't have the skills or the knowledge to teach early learners properly.
On another note...all innately perfect teachers that are always brought up during these discussions...those without paper on the wall yet were apparently born to teach...will some day have to get that paper to continue to teach (of course they will continue because it is in the their blood) and unless they are poor learners will probably find the courses they take may actually enhance their perfection. I don't know of any 'natural' teachers who did not get better when they studied different facets of their chosen profession.
Great teachers are always learning about their profession...learning new tactics and discarding the old...my M'Ed work moved me into a different level of understanding about reading and and writing and how second language students develop these skills early on...what I learned has made me a better teacher...
And, Canucksaram, I would love to take the bet....your dollar against my penny.... I have a lot of pennies...besides the pennies I will bring all the paper I have on my wall and the ten years of experience that I have had putting the paper to good use in the classroom....maybe I can retire... |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Good teachers, bad teachers, the palpable fact is Korea as a whole is making strides in english.
The same bullheadedness that built this country up from nothing in 50 years is set on conquering the global lingo & they've only been seriously at it for 10 years & in another 10 years a good chunk of the populace (those that need or want it) will be conversant in english.
Mark my words.
Backpack teachers & all. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
Good teachers, bad teachers, the palpable fact is Korea as a whole is making strides in english.
The same bullheadedness that built this country up from nothing in 50 years is set on conquering the global lingo & they've only been seriously at it for 10 years & in another 10 years a good chunk of the populace (those that need or want it) will be conversant in english.
Mark my words.
Backpack teachers & all. |
You know Schwa, you're probably right. On one hand it looks like Korean educators are doing everything wrong in language teaching, Yet I'm inclined to think they'll prevail on pure perseverance alone. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
| I have done a lot of research in emergent literacy and immersion kindergarten. I would suspect that those professionals who are working in early childhood education would be offended to be called mental midgets...and I would suspect anyone who thought that kindie teachers were mental midgets probably wouldn't have the skills or the knowledge to teach early learners properly. |
I teach kindergarten (down to one class thankfully), too. I'm a crap kindie teacher and have great admiration for those who can do it well; it requires a kind of intelligence that I don't have. There are some kindergarten teachers who are good at what they do and have a great intellect; there are others who don't need a great intellect to be good at what they do. Then there are high school teachers who are just plain too stupid to be teaching anything beyond about grade four. How some of my teachers got degrees I'll never figure out. They simply needed to be replaced by someone with a three-digit IQ, not go through a teaching course. |
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coolsage
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: The overcast afternoon of the soul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Scott in HK wrote: |
| I have done a lot of research in emergent literacy and immersion kindergarten. I would suspect that those professionals who are working in early childhood education would be offended to be called mental midgets...and I would suspect anyone who thought that kindie teachers were mental midgets probably wouldn't have the skills or the knowledge to teach early learners properly. |
I teach kindergarten (down to one class thankfully), too. I'm a crap kindie teacher and have great admiration for those who can do it well; it requires a kind of intelligence that I don't have. There are some kindergarten teachers who are good at what they do and have a great intellect; there are others who don't need a great intellect to be good at what they do. Then there are high school teachers who are just plain too stupid to be teaching anything beyond about grade four. How some of my teachers got degrees I'll never figure out. They simply needed to be replaced by someone with a three-digit IQ, not go through a teaching course. |
Unfortunately, the same dilemma occurs at the uni level where I currently toil. While most of the native speakers there do a decent job, there is always one who somehow slips through the cracks, who doesn't have a clue as to what the target audience requires. If the students' only exposure to EFL is somebody like this, it degrades us all. What's needed on every search committee is one native speaker who can, hopefully, spot the impostors and weed them the hell out. But in ten year's time, the language ability of the locals will have evolved to a level of proficiency where our services will no longer be required. Maybe. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| coolsage wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Scott in HK wrote: |
| I have done a lot of research in emergent literacy and immersion kindergarten. I would suspect that those professionals who are working in early childhood education would be offended to be called mental midgets...and I would suspect anyone who thought that kindie teachers were mental midgets probably wouldn't have the skills or the knowledge to teach early learners properly. |
I teach kindergarten (down to one class thankfully), too. I'm a crap kindie teacher and have great admiration for those who can do it well; it requires a kind of intelligence that I don't have. There are some kindergarten teachers who are good at what they do and have a great intellect; there are others who don't need a great intellect to be good at what they do. Then there are high school teachers who are just plain too stupid to be teaching anything beyond about grade four. How some of my teachers got degrees I'll never figure out. They simply needed to be replaced by someone with a three-digit IQ, not go through a teaching course. |
Unfortunately, the same dilemma occurs at the uni level where I currently toil. While most of the native speakers there do a decent job, there is always one who somehow slips through the cracks, who doesn't have a clue as to what the target audience requires. If the students' only exposure to EFL is somebody like this, it degrades us all. What's needed on every search committee is one native speaker who can, hopefully, spot the impostors and weed them the hell out. But in ten year's time, the language ability of the locals will have evolved to a level of proficiency where our services will no longer be required. Maybe. |
I doubt Koreans will ever manage that myself. And they're scared to get foreigners involved in their hiring practices, so they'll always make plenty of mistakes in hiring.
I just find it very funny that so many people seem to think that requiring teachers to go through a course will ensure that they get good teachers. A lot of people just don't have the aptitude or intellect to teach, no matter what course they take. Others who have never had any formal training do. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| I just find it very funny that so many people seem to think that requiring teachers to go through a course will ensure that they get good teachers. |
Looking beyond Dave's ESL-style anecdotal "I know good teachers who had no training, and bad teachers who did" style posts that serve to minimize the value of training in language teaching methodology, I've been in enough Korean ESL situations to feel comfortable saying that real ESL training makes for better teachers than no training. Are we really debating this? And no, I have never claimed that such certificates and degrees guarantee good teachers.
Insurance companies commonly give discounts on premiums to drivers who have taken defensive driving courses. Those courses don't guarantee good drivers, and it's possible to be a good driver without taking the course. But the insurance companies are justified in giving that discount in recognition of the value of the course.
And an employer is justified in demanding candidates who have bothered to take a month out of their busy lives to try to develop and improve their practice. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| I just find it very funny that so many people seem to think that requiring teachers to go through a course will ensure that they get good teachers. |
Looking beyond Dave's ESL-style anecdotal "I know good teachers who had no training, and bad teachers who did" style posts that serve to minimize the value of training in language teaching methodology, I've been in enough Korean ESL situations to feel comfortable saying that real ESL training makes for better teachers than no training. Are we really debating this? And no, I have never claimed that such certificates and degrees guarantee good teachers.
Insurance companies commonly give discounts on premiums to drivers who have taken defensive driving courses. Those courses don't guarantee good drivers, and it's possible to be a good driver without taking the course. But the insurance companies are justified in giving that discount in recognition of the value of the course.
And an employer is justified in demanding candidates who have bothered to take a month out of their busy lives to try to develop and improve their practice. |
I've heard of insurance companies doing this with new drivers, but I know that in Canada you only get discounts when you drive for a long time without causing an accident.
At any rate, I think that certificates have some merrit when it comes to ESL, but here in Korea, if I were running a hogwan it would be the least of my concerns. First concern would be experience.
There are so many little things Koreans could do that they won't. Why not have the other FTs interview new candidates? Why not give prospective employees a realistic picture? Why not give them some disciplinary tools? At most hogwans, training in how to make children sit down and shut up would be far, far more useful than more ESL certificates. At many hogwans, more TEFL training would only make teachers more depressed about the useless materials they're forced to teach again and again and again. Koreans for the most part won't let Westerners try to mend their fucked up education system, so what's the point in learning to refine the right way when you're stuck doing things the wrong way?
If it were up to me, and I had to hire a foreign newbie, and I had a choice between a day-care worker with a grade ten education who I knew from extensive background-checking was really skilled at managing children, and an M Ed with a TEFL certificate who was new to the field, I know whom I'd pick. I'd also pick someone over 25. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I know that in Canada you only get discounts when you drive for a long time without causing an accident.
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You're incorrect. As a Canadian, I know this to be false, at least in my home province (different provinces have different insurance rules). I definitely received a discount for having completed a defensive driving course.
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| At most hogwans, training in how to make children sit down and shut up would be far, far more useful than more ESL certificates. |
Perhaps this is one of those places where training would be useful - making children "shut up" is not quite in the job description of an English conversation teacher. Rather the opposite is the case.
I know you're talking discipline.
And do you know where you can learn effective classroom management techniques? If you guessed a teacher training course geared to teaching young learners, you'd be right. If you say, "experience teaches you more", then I suggest we're talking about two different things when we talk about "effective classroom management techniques".
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| At many hogwans, more TEFL training would only make teachers more depressed about the useless materials they're forced to teach again and again and again. |
See my first posts in the thread about my very dim view of (most) hogwons as educational institutions.
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| Koreans for the most part won't let Westerners try to mend their *beep* up education system |
I'm not so sure I'd want people tinkering with my educational system who have minimal understanding of the local culture and language and no formal training in the subject they're paid to teach, as *beep*ed up as the system may be.
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| So what's the point in learning to refine the right way when you're stuck doing things the wrong way? |
Hmm.. "we're forced to suck, so what's the point of learning how to not suck"?
Look up "professional".
Sucking as a school is the responsibility of the school's administration.
Sucking as a teacher is the responsibility of the teacher, and if a teacher is in an environment where they're unable to do what they're hired to do - which is to not suck - because of circumstances they believe are out of their control, they should leave when their contract is out, to a job that will let them be the professionals they're paid to be.
I'm well aware of the realities of bad hogwons, but it is a copout for teachers to say, "I would try to be a good teacher but my school won't let me, so I won't bother". |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:59 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Lemon.
Although I know a lot of teachers who are really good and don't have any formal education in the field, in general the teacher's who have had some kind of training have fewer discipline problems, better quality classes and a more professional attitude. In fact of the top teachers I know only 2 have no formal training at all (beyond a TESOL certificate). |
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Blind Willie
Joined: 05 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Sigh...
I like being a cowboy. I get to ride a horsey and wear chaps and a cool hat.
But there will always be room for cowboys in the world. If the Korean hagwon industry decides they dont need the likes of me, I'll ride off into the sunset, like Shane.
Except for the dying part. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Blind Willie wrote: |
But there will always be room for cowboys in the world. If the Korean hagwon industry decides they dont need the likes of me, I'll ride off into |
.. Taiwan?  |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
See my first posts in the thread about my very dim view of (most) hogwons as educational institutions.
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Fair enough Lemon, but when it comes down to it, you want a complete entire overhaul of the Korean education system. Lack of qualified teachers is a symptom of the much bigger problem and not the cause.
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| Koreans for the most part won't let Westerners try to mend their *beep* up education system |
I'm not so sure I'd want people tinkering with my educational system who have minimal understanding of the local culture and language and no formal training in the subject they're paid to teach, as *beep*ed up as the system may be.
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If every foreign teacher had credentials and experience up the yingyang, I still highly doubt their opinions would be taken very seriously. I won't even argue that they *should* be taken seriously. This is Korea and the people in charge can do whatever they want with their education system and listen to whomever they want to listen to. When it comes down to it it's their problem not mine. |
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Blind Willie
Joined: 05 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Blind Willie wrote: |
But there will always be room for cowboys in the world. If the Korean hagwon industry decides they dont need the likes of me, I'll ride off into |
.. Taiwan? |
I was actually thinking of your couch.
Or maybe the backseat of your car.
We are members of the brotherhood of evil after all... |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I know that in Canada you only get discounts when you drive for a long time without causing an accident.
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You're incorrect. As a Canadian, I know this to be false, at least in my home province (different provinces have different insurance rules). I definitely received a discount for having completed a defensive driving course.
| Quote: |
| At most hogwans, training in how to make children sit down and shut up would be far, far more useful than more ESL certificates. |
Perhaps this is one of those places where training would be useful - making children "shut up" is not quite in the job description of an English conversation teacher. Rather the opposite is the case.
I know you're talking discipline.
And do you know where you can learn effective classroom management techniques? If you guessed a teacher training course geared to teaching young learners, you'd be right. If you say, "experience teaches you more", then I suggest we're talking about two different things when we talk about "effective classroom management techniques".
| Quote: |
| At many hogwans, more TEFL training would only make teachers more depressed about the useless materials they're forced to teach again and again and again. |
See my first posts in the thread about my very dim view of (most) hogwons as educational institutions.
| Quote: |
| Koreans for the most part won't let Westerners try to mend their *beep* up education system |
I'm not so sure I'd want people tinkering with my educational system who have minimal understanding of the local culture and language and no formal training in the subject they're paid to teach, as *beep*ed up as the system may be.
| Quote: |
| So what's the point in learning to refine the right way when you're stuck doing things the wrong way? |
Hmm.. "we're forced to suck, so what's the point of learning how to not suck"?
Look up "professional".
Sucking as a school is the responsibility of the school's administration.
Sucking as a teacher is the responsibility of the teacher, and if a teacher is in an environment where they're unable to do what they're hired to do - which is to not suck - because of circumstances they believe are out of their control, they should leave when their contract is out, to a job that will let them be the professionals they're paid to be.
I'm well aware of the realities of bad hogwons, but it is a copout for teachers to say, "I would try to be a good teacher but my school won't let me, so I won't bother". |
Granted I don't know much about the public education system, which sounds completely buggered too, and we may be talking apples and oranges. But it seems you're sort of making my point. What would someone seeking a truly professional career do at most Korean institutions? Quit, of course.
How do you not suck so badly at a sucky institution? Do you know of any courses in Canada in how to be slightly more effective in an environment of systemic Korean educational fraud? What I've figured out about getting the better kids to learn has been entirely through experience and I have certainly not seen any ESL guides that would help. I worked as a volunteer at an ESL programme in a Canadian school and none of the disciplinary options there are open to me, so I fail to see how a Canadian teachers training course would be of much good to me here re: class control. |
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