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marlow
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: Grammar Question |
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Which of these two sentences is correct?
1) The ball flies farthest.
2) The ball flies the farthest.
I want to say, "That ball flies the farthest".
It's a question from one of my students, and I can never answer grammar questions properly. My students need grammatical reasons, and usually all I can offer is my opinion on what sounds better. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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It's interesting how things that don't matter in idiomatic English are tough to explain.
I'm just pulling this out of my ass, but I think since a superlative is a kind of adjective it should be preceded by an article whether it preceeds or follows the noun. You would say I am *the* fastest runner, not I am fastest runner. So it would make sense to say I run *the* fastest, not I run fastest. |
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No L
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Farthest is a superlative. Superlatives use "the" (the biggest, the most, the largest, etc.) |
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ladyandthetramp
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Mom knows best!
He who laughs last, laughs loudest. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| No L wrote: |
| Farthest is a superlative. Superlatives use "the" (the biggest, the most, the largest, etc.) |
This is true but i think farthest can also be an adverb which doesnt require 'the'.This would mean that both your examples are correct depending on the context. |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: |
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English club has the answer to this one:
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When we compare one thing with itself, we do not use "the":
England is coldest in winter. (not the coldest)
My boss is most generous when we get a big order. (not the most generous) |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: |
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They are both correct. The only difference is one of formailty. The sentence with the is more formal.
(If it were a possessive, you need the. ex. It was the farthest that the ball flew.) |
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redbird
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| matthewwoodford wrote: |
English club has the answer to this one:
| Quote: |
When we compare one thing with itself, we do not use "the":
England is coldest in winter. (not the coldest)
My boss is most generous when we get a big order. (not the most generous) |
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This might be a British/American thing with Americans almost always using the article with superlatives. To my American ears, the above sentences sound a little British. I think we'd use articles with superlatives except in the special case of a general description as in "My boss is most generous", meaning that she's especially generous. Even then it feels a bit idiomatic. |
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ladyandthetramp
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| waggo wrote: |
| No L wrote: |
| Farthest is a superlative. Superlatives use "the" (the biggest, the most, the largest, etc.) |
This is true but i think farthest can also be an adverb which doesnt require 'the'.This would mean that both your examples are correct depending on the context. |
The English club assessment seems right, but it only gives examples with the copular "is". It's missing what waggo points out about adverbial usage, which you can see in the examples I posted above. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| A full explanation is on page 123 of Swan's Practical English Usage. |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| ladyandthetramp wrote: |
Mom knows best!
He who laughs last, laughs loudest. |
I don't think adverbial usage always works. For instance, I think all these work except the last one:
i) He laughs loudest who laughs last. (relative defining clause)
ii) He laughs the loudest. (definite article)
iii) He laughs loudest. (could work in context, or because we all know the proverb and that supplies a context)
iv) He runs fastest in cold weather. (comparing something to itself)
v) He runs fastest. (???)
So if you drop the definite article you need something to take its place, if only a context. However, 'Mom knows best' is obviously valid and seems to be an exception - unless it's because we don't need to specify who we're comparing Mom to? More examples:
a) John shoots best. John shoots quickest. (adverbial)
b) John's aim is best. John's reflexes are quickest. (copular)
c) John has best aim. John has quickest reflex. (konglish)
a) and b) would sound ok to me in conversation, where you'd know who John was and who he was being compared to, but inappropriate in writing - so 'the' does seem to add more formality. c) sounds like fingernails on the blackboard so is the rule just "Never drop the definite article in front of a superlative after the main verb 'have'"?? (not to mention other verbs such as 'want'). <--- I guess that rule is use 'the' before nouns.
My brain hurts. Someone please help. 
Last edited by matthewwoodford on Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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matthewwoodford
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Location: Location, location, location.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| gypsyfish wrote: |
| A full explanation is on page 123 of Swan's Practical English Usage. |
Would you mind quoting that? |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't going to because I paraphrased it earlier, but I see I wrote page 123, instead of page 125, so, as penance here it is. (Mea Culpa)
12 the with superlatives
Nouns with superlative adjectives have the article the unless there is a possessive.
-It's the best book I've ever read.-
Superlative adjectives in predicative positionalso tend to have the, though it is sometimes dropped in an informal style.
-I'm the greatest.-
-Which of the boys is (the) strongest?-i]
-[i]This dictionary is (the) best.-i]
[i]The is sometimes dropped before superlative adverbs in an informal style.
-[i]Who can run(the) fastest.-
The cannot be dropped when a superlative in predicative position is used with a defining expression.
-This dictionary is the best I could find.
-(NOT This dictionary is best I could find.)-
-She was the quickest of all the staff.-
The is not used with superlatives in predicative position or with superlative adverbs, when we compare the same person or thing in different situations.
Compare:
-He's nicest when he's had a few drinks. (NOT He's the nicest when ...)-
-I've got a lot of friends, but he's (the) nicest.-
-She works hardest when she's doing something for her family.-
-(NOT She works the hardest when ... - a woman's work is beingcompared in different situations.)-
-She works (the) hardest; her husband doesn't know what work is. (A woman is being compared with a man - the is possible.)-
I've tried to recreate it as it it in Practical English Usage by Michael Swan. If you have students who pose obscure grammar questions, you should pick one up or have your school buy one.
Martin Parrott's book on Grammar for English Teachers (?) is even better. |
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