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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
| How about............the possibility that your salary would never go up even if there weren't a single illegal in this country because Koreans already feel that 2 mill for a few hours a day is a hell of a lot of money? Haven't you noticed how much you are resented by your Korean co-workers that have to work twice as long as you for half the pay? Sure, get rid of the illegals. You'll still be paid far more than Korean teachers. You want triple their wage? You really think that would fly? |
Exactly. Many illegals work at hogwans that simply don't have the legal amount of pyeong space or enrollment required by the Ministry of Education to legally hire an E2 teacher. Or they work for home-school agencies that are not allowed to employ E2 teachers. Or they are just working their own network of privates. They're not working our jobs. The only thing that an E2 teacher could see happening is some increased enrollment distributed among legal hogwans, if all of the illegal ops were shut down. And because of some increased enrollment doesn't not magically equate that directors are suddenly going to become less greedy and start caring more about the financial well-being of their teaching staff. The whole argument of 'yay, I will profit so much if illegal teachers are kicked out' is a total symbol of the thought bankruptcy that some people have on here. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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OK rant time:
I was hoping that when I posted this article and my follow-up that it would lead into thought provoking ideas about this problem which indirectly affects all of us IMHO.
I personally found Pyongshin and Summer's comments interesting about Korean attitudes and what we are really getting compensated for - in addition to teaching.
Unfortunately much of this topic has been diverted by a bunch of garbage about how one poster must be evil incarnate because he said something about Canada's visa length as part of the problem. What is it, do Canadians have group PMS or something? The reaction to Derreks comments - which may or may not have merit (doesn't matter in my book) has gone over the top in some respects. Aren't some of the posters a weee bit sensitive today - What's the matter, run out of Advil?
We've got an immigration crackdown under way or coming in June, we've got increased scrutiny, we've got legitimate teachers being viewed with suspicion (sp?), hogwan owners who are forcing teachers to work illegally, we've got the real possibility of overreaction and incompetence on the part of immigration causing innocent teachers being arrested and deported, etc., etc. etc., and what is the main argument here? The length of a tourist Visa, a certain poster may not like another country, and a comparative cost analysis of a friggin' visa run! Jeez.
I have read comments from posters, who have posted on this thread, about Americans that would put Derrecks comment to shame. I have read complaints from posters, who have posted on this thread, about how overly nationalistic and sensitive Koreans are to even oblique criticism of their country. Yet, I am seeing some of the same behavior here from some of my fellow posters.
Well, I guess to be nice I'll give some of you some ammunition to jump on me about. Within the last month I have fired 2 Canadians for incompetence and overall stupidity. So I guess this makes me anti-Canadian!
In the words of that famous modern day philosopher Sniff, sniff "Can't we all just get along?"
Oh yes, in case someone thinks I am a sock or something like that. I can tell you that I am MUCH better looking than Derrek, work a lot less, and probably have much less talent for teaching than he has. But I think my *&^%$ is probably bigger.
Ok rant over. Thanks guys, I feel much better now. The medication must be kickin' in. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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I know that there are more than a few Koreans willing to give up ephemeral things like friendship for a few dollars. Save it for Oprah. We aren't paid more because they respect us for making the choice to move here; it is after all the greatest country in the world as far as they are concerned. We are paid more because 2 million/month is the minimum that the market will bear.
You think that the salary men working 60 hour weeks for Hyundai didn't have to choose between friends and work?
You tell your Jjajangmyun delivery guy that you make more than him because you have to endure the unspeakable pain of missing your friends in Moose Jaw. Tell me what he says. You tell the Koreans that you should get paid more because there are fewer foreigners here breaking the law. Tell me if they agree that you are worth more because of that.
IIlegals devalue us, I agree. The logical fallacy in all of these arguments is that fewer illegals would translate into a raise in pay. This is wishful thinking. It's a one-way relationship, we are already being paid more than they feel we are worth. |
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FUBAR
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: The Y.C.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Teufelswacht wrote: |
OK rant time:
Oh yes, in case someone thinks I am a sock or something like that. I can tell you that I am MUCH better looking than Derrek, work a lot less, and probably have much less talent for teaching than he has. But I think my *&^%$ is probably bigger.
Ok rant over. Thanks guys, I feel much better now. The medication must be kickin' in. |
Sorry guys. next time I will post under my real username. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
I know that there are more than a few Koreans willing to give up ephemeral things like friendship for a few dollars. Save it for Oprah. We aren't paid more because they respect us for making the choice to move here; it is after all the greatest country in the world as far as they are concerned. We are paid more because 2 million/month is the minimum that the market will bear.
You think that the salary men working 60 hour weeks for Hyundai didn't have to choose between friends and work?
You tell your Jjajangmyun delivery guy that you make more than him because you have to endure the unspeakable pain of missing your friends in Moose Jaw. Tell me what he says. You tell the Koreans that you should get paid more because there are fewer foreigners here breaking the law. Tell me if they agree that you are worth more because of that.
IIlegals devalue us, I agree. The logical fallacy in all of these arguments is that fewer illegals would translate into a raise in pay. This is wishful thinking. It's a one-way relationship, we are already being paid more than they feel we are worth. |
Its not illogical. Its supply and demand, silly.
Situation 1: School has several teachers to choose from. They can offer 2 million to them all and see who snaps it up.
Situation 2: 3 schools want to hire one teacher. Teacher can choose an offer that suits him or approach a hagwon about raising the offer to beat a competitor.
If there are more hagwons than teachers, demand will drive wages up. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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It's a one-way relationship, we are already being paid more than they feel we are worth.
My point was that when we come to this place, we make decesions based on the percieved benefits to us compared to what we give up. They make decesions based on what they think they can pay us to get us to come here. Thats not quite the same thing as the percieved lack of competent qualified (Bed) teachers would conclude, they might not feel it is in thier economic benefit to do so for the compensation. (I know my brother didn't)
Secondly, just as I expected to get paid less than an individual hired specifically from Denmark to do a job in my country, I would make a reasoned approach that what is so unexpected for a korean english teacher to get paid less than someone specifically chosen to come here.
Thirdly, returning to the point of compensation, when I first arrived here, I was at about 1.6, now I am at 2.0 could earn more but I don't like doing extra privates and I like my free time. They are not paying me more because they want too, they are paying more now because I and others refuse to work for less than what is economically beneficial. If I work somewhere for less I expect other benefits for that, not always, economic. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
If there are more hagwons than teachers, demand will drive wages up. |
True, but there's not. There's far more teachers applying for jobs than schools looking for teachers. Directors get hit with so many resumes that they can afford to be selective and say things to recruiters like 'only North American females, under 30.' You won't believe how many employable people are sending resumes into this country. I know directors at some big schools that employ a lot of teachers who you would think cannot afford to be picky based on the yearly turnover, but they can still be picky on who they want, because there are 60+ recruiters pumping resumes into Korea. But almost every single time a picky school gets down to the wire and can't get exactly who they want, they opt for hiring the 50yr old, overweight guy from South Africa just because he'll sign for 1.9 and has been desperately job-hunting here for the past 5 months..
Schools will ease up on their hiring particularities among the sea of applicants, long before they even thinking about raising a salary for a couple 100,000Won. |
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nrvs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: standing upright on a curve
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| The argument that we get paid more doesn't compute when you financially work out the costs. Teachers here give up things and they are financially compensated. Koreans get paid less but give up less. |
I agree.
My argument is clarified in this post I made a few months ago. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| FUBAR wrote: |
| Teufelswacht wrote: |
OK rant time:
Oh yes, in case someone thinks I am a sock or something like that. I can tell you that I am MUCH better looking than Derrek, work a lot less, and probably have much less talent for teaching than he has. But I think my *&^%$ is probably bigger.
Ok rant over. Thanks guys, I feel much better now. The medication must be kickin' in. |
Sorry guys. next time I will post under my real username. |
To be fair, I think Derrek is a good teacher and from what I've read here somebody I'd recommend, skill wise, for a job. As a matter of fact, I've lamented to a few people that I know from Dave's that based on what he's put here about teaching I've been tempted to contact him a few times, but unfortunately he seems to be the type who'd sour the office atmosphere. My office split has a 5/4 Canadian/American split and the stuff that he brings up here never comes up there. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:09 am Post subject: |
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Cracking down on illegals probably won't get most of us more money- but it might improve things in small ways..
A lot of public schools are now requesting a background check on potential teachers. Yes, it's a pain in the butt to get one, but if it keeps a pedophile out of the classroom, isn't that worth it? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:20 am Post subject: |
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I just wonder how many of these "illegals" will in fact be illegal.
Immigration has already looked sideways at my degree last year and tried to tell me it wasn't legit. Suppose they just force the issue next time and fine me and then deport me. 
I am all for keeping criminals out of classrooms, but I foresee a lot of abuse coming our way from all this. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| chronicpride wrote: |
| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
If there are more hagwons than teachers, demand will drive wages up. |
True, but there's not. There's far more teachers applying for jobs than schools looking for teachers. Directors get hit with so many resumes that they can afford to be selective and say things to recruiters like 'only North American females, under 30.' You won't believe how many employable people are sending resumes into this country. I know directors at some big schools that employ a lot of teachers who you would think cannot afford to be picky based on the yearly turnover, but they can still be picky on who they want, because there are 60+ recruiters pumping resumes into Korea. But almost every single time a picky school gets down to the wire and can't get exactly who they want, they opt for hiring the 50yr old, overweight guy from South Africa just because he'll sign for 1.9 and has been desperately job-hunting here for the past 5 months..
Schools will ease up on their hiring particularities among the sea of applicants, long before they even thinking about raising a salary for a couple 100,000Won. |
I find this hard to believe given my hogwan's trouble finding a new teacher. They even brought in one guy with a British passport for an interview who turned out to be a Morroccan. I also suspect that hogwans' offers are turned down most of the time, and a large % do runners. I got an email with an offer after I had already come here, and getting offers was not much of a problem compared to some other countries I had looked into. |
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SuperHero
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Superhero Hideout
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Teufelswacht wrote: |
| What is it, do Canadians have group PMS or something? The reaction to Derreks comments |
It wouldn't have mattered if it was a one off comment. But almost every single thread Derrek posts on has something against Canadians.
I also agree with the_beavers post about Derrek probably being an excellent teacher, but somebody who would probably destroy office chemistry. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
That being said, I don't understand why immi doesn't stop someone who's been coming to Korea for the last 3 years and ask, why do you have 6 tourist visas in a row (or 12 in the case of Anericans)?
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This is it exactly. Why do they think people come here for years? Because it's such a great, clean country if you're a tourist? Quite possibly. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:31 am Post subject: |
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It wouldn't have mattered if it was a one off comment. But almost every single thread Derrek posts on has something against Canadians.
I also agree with the_beavers post about Derrek probably being an excellent teacher, but somebody who would probably destroy office chemistry. |
Admittedly, I don't know the "history" of Derrek. And quite honestly I don't care. My problem is that we (all of us - Americans, Canadians, Brits, Martians, Uranusians(?), etc) have an ever increasing image problem because of boneheads who teach illegally. The media isn't helping much either, as we all know. Some people on the boards have a heck of a lot of experience and some great ideas or observations about things. I was hoping to read some insightful comments about this whole issue. Instead, this thread seemed to get bogged down by the same kind of "us vs. them" crap I see in other threads and on other boards.
However, it does seem now that some more interesting ideas are coming out. |
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