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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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 Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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OK. So it seems from a jury of your peers here on Dave's Internet Court you have been found responsible for facilitating the loss/theft of the item.
Now that responsibility has been established (in a civil sense, not a criminal one), what is the appropriate judgement/punishment?
Should the OP have to buy a new one for the "victim".
Should a groveling apology to the parents suffice?
Should the OP be drawn and quartered?
Should the OP have to clean the toilets of the Hogwan for a month?
Should the OP be given free license to investigate the theft and question the classmates Abu Gharib (sp?) style?
OK a little silly, I know. But really, what should the OP do?
Take care.
Teufelswacht |
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nrvs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: standing upright on a curve
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Well, here's what happened:
The hogwan tried to get me to pay for it. I refused, because despite what Dave's People's Court thinks, I don't think I'm at fault in this situation. I told my manager that I wouldn't pay, and it would be a very big mistake to take it out of my paycheck. I was implying that May's pay day would be the last day that I worked in Korea until November (early holiday in South Asia). My message came through loud and clear. They know that I'm a good teacher, well-liked by my students, hard working, and very profitable for their business. They've had no problems with me up until now. Losing me and having the hassle of finding someone new was not worth W250,000.
Predictably, they backed down. They saved face by telling me that while they still think I'm partially to blame, it was a "new policy" (giving confiscated gadgets back at the end of class). They said that I shouldn't have to pay because it wasn't the policy at the time. Up until this week, most teachers did the exact same thing as me -- leaving things on the desk for collection by the student. But "next time," it would come out of my paycheck. I helped them with the face-saving by conceding that I think it's a good idea to give items back at the end of class, and that this situation will never happen again. Then we agreed to never mention it again. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| nrvs wrote: |
| I don't think I'm at fault in this situation. |
Fault or not, why do you feel you aren't responsible for something that disappeared while in your care? I am genuinely curious. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| nrvs wrote: |
Well, here's what happened:
The hogwan tried to get me to pay for it. I refused, because despite what Dave's People's Court thinks, I don't think I'm at fault in this situation. |
Despite what Dave's People's Court thinks.
Well tell me, genius...if you didn't care so much about what Dave's People's Court thinks, why did you go to all the trouble to broadcast your whole story on Dave's in the first place?
You should probably know that by now a large percentage of "Dave's People's Court" thinks you're a dipstick. You didn't steal the damn thing, but you did get it lost. And rather than owning up to your mistake -- yeah, your mistake, if you're going to confiscate stuff you should at least take care that it doesn't get waylaid -- you come on here and brag about how you forced your hogwan boss to back down. Not because you were in the right, but because it's more trouble to the boss than what it's worth.
He's probably going to take it out of your LAST pay. If he does, serves you right.
Congratulations. You just joined MOS's List of the Intensely Stupid. |
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casey's moon
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:26 am Post subject: |
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MOS, are you serious? I think that what happened to nrvs could have happened to many of us. Perhaps it was his/her mistake in a way, but mostly it was the fault of the jerk who stole it off the desk. It was a lesson learned, and I'm glad that nrvs did post it here, as it is a lesson I would prefer to learn second-hand. I've confiscated tons of phones during university classes, and it never occurred to me to make sure that the right phone got back to the right student after class every time -- didn't even cross my mind to worry.
Am I going to be on your List now too??? 
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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You're damn right I'm serious. You don't have to agree with me, but yeah you're damn right I'm serious.
Casey, the guy went out of his way to brag about how effortlessly he sweeps up stuff and pops it on his desk. Including the dictionary. How he has it down to an art. He was more than happy to pull a power trip by confiscating it, but obviously couldn't care less if by doing so, the thing got lost or stolen.
And now his not thinking about what he was doing has caused a lot of unnecessary difficulties for his boss. YEAH stuff gets stolen. Everywhere. He should be made to pay for it so that he will think twice about what he is doing next time.
And if you're doing the same thing, it wouldn't hurt for you -- for everyone -- to learn from his mistake, think twice and be more careful if and when you confiscate stuff. Certainly *I've* learned from his mistake. I'm not going to go near an electronic dictionary if I see one in class, it's clearly not worth the potential trouble.
Last edited by Manner of Speaking on Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| If by confiscating an expensive phone you place it in a situation where it gets stolen easily, wouldn't you feel at least some responsibilty for it going missing? If I were in his situation I would have offered to pay at least part of the replacement cost, maybe 1/3, because I'm willing to admit it was at least partially my fault. Because if I did have good relations with my boss, I'd want to show them it's not worth losing our relationship over something as stupid as somebody else's dictionary. That's just common sense. |
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nrvs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: standing upright on a curve
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Fault or not, why do you feel you aren't responsible for something that disappeared while in your care? |
I thought this was clear. But I'll reiterate for you, just like I did on that other thread.
Paying for the dictionary out of my pocket implies full responsibility, and I won't accept that. The thief is to blame, followed by the student and his mother.
The student should've remembered to pick it up on the way out of class. He had to walk directly past my desk to get out the door. The dictionary was right on top, in plain view, not hidden away. He forgot, probably because he carelessly loaned it out to another student in the first place, and some delinquent swiped it. Dozens of other students have successfully reclaimed their property in this way in my classroom; probably hundreds in my hogwan over the course of a year. Every student knows the drill. It was clear from day one how the process worked. All of those other students got it, but he didn't. This student reclamation process was standard operating procedure at my hogwan up until last week. In fact, at the staff meeting where the "new policy" was handed down, many other teachers (both Korean and foreign) were surprised it was such an issue.
His mother is at fault for letting him take such an expensive, unnecessary gadget to the hogwan in the first place. As I said before, 95% of the time there is no need for a dictionary with my school's curriculum. The students know this, but they like to play games on them. If there is an actual need, I have a good paper dictionary which does the trick. These camera phones, Gameboys, MP3 players, and fancy talking dictionaries are prestige objects, nothing more. Judging by the stuff my students pull out of their bookbags in class, I'd say the average 12 year-old in my hogwan is walking around with W500,000+ of electronics at any given time. That's ridiculous. The parents must share the blame with the student if stuff goes missing, no matter what the situation is.
Anyway, perhaps next time the student won't be so forgetful. Everyone, including myself, loses something of value when they're young. It's painful. It sucks. Yet, it's a necessary experience that teaches you the value of your possessions. At age 12, if a student is permitted by his parents to bring such expensive devices to school, he needs to realize the responsibility that's inherent with that privilege.
Honestly, I'm not proud to be a part of this, because I hate losing things too. So don't think I'm laughing gleefully at his misfortune. But I won't accept the full responsibility that paying for the dictionary out of my pocket would suggest.
| Gord wrote: |
| I am genuinely curious. |
Gord, you're rarely genuine when you're trying to pick a fight on Dave's. It's especially obvious when you recycle the same tired, insincere phrase in your one-liners. |
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nrvs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: standing upright on a curve
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Casey, the guy went out of his way to brag about how effortlessly he sweeps up stuff and pops it on his desk. Including the dictionary. How he has it down to an art. He was more than happy to pull a power trip by confiscating it, but obviously couldn't care less if by doing so, the thing got lost or stolen. |
I was trying to illustrate how often I have to take distracting electronics away from my students. Yes, with practice, one gets pretty good at it. It's hardly a power trip; I wish it wasn't the case. But as long as students keep bringing camera phones, Gameboys, Palm Pilots (really!), and other kinds of expensive nonsense to class I've gotta keep keepin' on. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| nrvs wrote: |
| Paying for the dictionary out of my pocket implies full responsibility, and I won't accept that. The thief is to blame, followed by the student and his mother. |
Right. And his teacher. You are also to blame for confiscating the damn thing and putting it where a thief could access. You seem ready to dish out blame and responsibility but God forbid you should have to take any responsibility on yourself.
| Quote: |
| The student should've remembered to pick it up on the way out of class. He had to walk directly past my desk to get out the door. The dictionary was right on top, in plain view, not hidden away. He forgot, probably because he carelessly loaned it out to another student in the first place, and some delinquent swiped it. Dozens of other students have successfully reclaimed their property in this way in my classroom; probably hundreds in my hogwan over the course of a year. Every student knows the drill. It was clear from day one how the process worked. All of those other students got it, but he didn't. This student reclamation process was standard operating procedure at my hogwan up until last week. In fact, at the staff meeting where the "new policy" was handed down, many other teachers (both Korean and foreign) were surprised it was such an issue. |
We both know this is made-up crap, used to shield yourself from your partial responsibility for the thing getting stolen. I suspect maybe six students at most have followed this procedure in the past year, and you're just exaggerating it into "dozens" because you fear Gord may have a point.
If it hadn't been picked up at the end of class, how difficult would it have been for you to simply stash it in a drawer somewhere, until someone turned up looking for it? Certainly it would have taken no more effort than the way you "effortlessly swept it out of the students hands and onto your desk" in the first place.
Your students are not mind-readers, and since when did you "drill" your students in the "pick up procedure" so that every student "knows the drill"?
What drill? If he "knew the drill" he would have picked it up in the first place. If you had any sense of responsibility at all, you'd face up to the fact that you are partly responsible for the thing getting stolen. But you don't. You blame everybody but yourself...and even blame your boss, who couldn't have had any earthly involvement in the event at all.
If you, as a teacher, aren't willing to set an example by admitting at least partial responsibility for your mistake, then who are you to expect or demand that your student accept responsiblity for his? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| nrvs wrote: |
| Paying for the dictionary out of my pocket implies full responsibility, and I won't accept that. The thief is to blame, followed by the student and his mother. |
Blame and responsibility are two different things. Yes, whoever took the dictionary is to blame. But realistically (and is the view of most here), that since it was under your care that it was your responsibility.
If you borrowed some of my music CDs to listen to at work and then someone stole them from desk, would you tell me that I would have to track down the thief myself to get them back or ask for money to replace them? I certainly hope not.
| Quote: |
| Gord, you're rarely genuine when you're trying to pick a fight on Dave's. It's especially obvious when you recycle the same tired, insincere phrase in your one-liners. |
If I wanted to pick a fight, I would be far more agressive and be saying things like "congratulations on strong-arming your boss into covering your mistakes." Instead I've been down right polite. While I agree that paying for a lost dictionary is not something one wants to do, I don't see any reasonable excuse offered that deflects responsibility. Even now, you continue to blame children for not reclaiming what you took from them instead of accepting responsibility for returning their property or safeguarding it until that time. The logic is curious.
Though I admit in my time I've heard your claimed position many times. Often people rented product from me and had it stolen or lost (or so they claimed), or that they rented something for a friend so the friend is responsible, thus they feel they are removed from responsibility. That excuse never flew with me, my collection agency, or the courts if it went that far. |
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nrvs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: standing upright on a curve
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| We both know this is made-up crap, used to shield yourself from your partial responsibility for the thing getting stolen. I suspect maybe six students at most have followed this procedure in the past year, and you're just exaggerating it into "dozens" because you fear Gord may have a point. |
Incorrect. You can choose to believe me or you can suspect all you want, but the facts remain. It's a very ordinary action that I go through at least once every few days.
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Your students are not mind-readers, and since when did you "drill" your students in the "pick up procedure" so that every student "knows the drill"? |
It's easy. I verbalize exactly what I'm doing. After I take something away, I turn it off or pop off the battery, place it on my desk, stare hard at the student for a moment, and say "get it after class." Could I be more clear? I do this so often it's practically a mantra. Admittedly, I didn't say anything about the dictionary because I was in the middle of explaining something, but that shouldn't make any difference. My system was effective until one student forgot and had his mother bail him out. Every student before him took responsibility and remembered to pick up their gadget. Again, I can't force you to believe me. If you think I'm misrepresenting the facts, or you posit that I am for rhetoric's sake, I'm not sure why we're even discussing this.
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| If you, as a teacher, aren't willing to set an example by admitting at least partial responsibility for your mistake, then who are you to expect or demand that your student accept responsiblity for his? |
I was asked to pay the total cost of the dictionary. How does that imply partial responsibility in any way? Footing a fraction of the cost was not an option presented by my hogwan. In reality, I wasn't in such a bargaining mood anyway.
I note that neither you or Gord question why the students' parents, from whom ultimate responsibility should stem, allow them to pack such expensive toys in the first place. |
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nrvs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: standing upright on a curve
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| But realistically (and is the view of most here), |
Just because a view is popular doesn't make it true. 
| Gord wrote: |
| If you borrowed some of my music CDs to listen to at work and then someone stole them from desk, would you tell me that I would have to track down the thief myself to get them back or ask for money to replace them? I certainly hope not. |
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this analogy. The scenario you mention is completely different from the situation at hand. I did not borrow the dictionary. I did not say to the student, "Gee, I could use this annoying W250,000 talking dictionary with games on it with my Korean hogwan homework. Can I give it back to you on Friday?" The student was breaking the well-known rules of my class. I removed the dictionary from his desk and placed it upon mine. It remained in full view of every student, including its owner, at the front of my classroom. The student neglected to pick it up on his mad rush to the bus, and it was stolen. The thief, the student and his mother are responsible for its loss. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| nrvs wrote: |
| Gord wrote: |
| But realistically (and is the view of most here), |
Just because a view is popular doesn't make it true.
| Gord wrote: |
| If you borrowed some of my music CDs to listen to at work and then someone stole them from desk, would you tell me that I would have to track down the thief myself to get them back or ask for money to replace them? I certainly hope not. |
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this analogy. The scenario you mention is completely different from the situation at hand. I did not borrow the dictionary. I did not say to the student, "Gee, I could use this annoying W250,000 talking dictionary with games on it with my Korean hogwan homework. Can I give it back to you on Friday?" The student was breaking the well-known rules of my class. I removed the dictionary from his desk and placed it upon mine. It remained in full view of every student, including its owner, at the front of my classroom. The student neglected to pick it up on his mad rush to the bus, and it was stolen. The thief, the student and his mother are responsible for its loss. |
You are reponsible for its loss more than anyone else.
It was under YOUR care. Period. You took it, you should have cared for it. It was lost because YOU, thats tight YOU, failed to keep your eye on it, and because YOU gave the thief the opportunity to take it. You and the thief share most of the responsibility. |
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nrvs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: standing upright on a curve
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
| It was under YOUR care. Period. You took it, you should have cared for it. It was lost because YOU, thats tight YOU, failed to keep your eye on it, and because YOU |
Oh damn, Dave's is pissed. |
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