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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
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The question still remains.
If you, as a teacher, aren't willing to set an example by admitting that you are at least partially responsible, how can you criticize your student for refusing to do the same? |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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You are reponsible for its loss more than anyone else.
It was under YOUR care. Period. You took it, you should have cared for it. It was lost because YOU, thats tight YOU, failed to keep your eye on it, and because YOU gave the thief the opportunity to take it. You and the thief share most of the responsibility. |
Short, sweet, to the point.
Look nrvs, I don't know anything about you or the situation, but let's face facts. Once you took control of the item it became your responsibility, period. No manner of "Well, that's..." or "But's" is going to replace that fact. While it was under your care it was lost - fact. Ergo, you bear responsibility. Sucks, but such is life.
As for me:
(1) I NEVER allow a student to touch anything that is on my desk - ever. If they want something, they ask. They can be standing right in front of my desk, but they know never touch anything. I have confiscated items myself and placed them on the desk. Students have to come and ask - in English - for the item and then I return it. I never allow students to treat my kingdom/desk like a shelf in a department store.
(2) A second infraction in the same week by the same student results in my ceremoniously throwing the item in the trash can in the classroom - which is next to my desk (the trash can, not the classroom). At the end of class the student gets to come up in front of the entire class and dig through the trash can to retrieve their item. I rarely have repeat offenders. And it's a good way to kill the last minute of class.
(3) I NEVER leave the classroom before the last student is out. I do a quick check for any items left behind, grab the item, take it to my offiice and see that it is returned the next class or is available should the owner come back looking for the item.
I think one of the reasons you are kind of getting beat up here is that you seem to be refusing to say "Hey, I farked up." Is there responsiblity to be shared by the student? Yes. Parents? Yes. But in the classroom The Buck Stops With You. Again, it may suck in this situation, but many things in life do.
I hope this situation doesn't poison your relationship with your director. It's probably a good thing you don't work for me.
Take care
Teufelswacht |
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MixtecaMike
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Largest Train Station in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Blame the tobbacco companies. Instead of
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| (a)nyway, after the bell rang, I ran upstairs to have a cigarette on the roof |
try standing at the front of your classroom and saying goodbye, see you tomorrow, have a nice evening, don't forget your homework, etc like most of the decent polite folks in this forum do. |
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Daechidong Waygookin
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Location: No Longer on Dave's. Ive quit.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| nrvs wrote: |
| Daechidong Waygookin wrote: |
| It was under YOUR care. Period. You took it, you should have cared for it. It was lost because YOU, thats tight YOU, failed to keep your eye on it, and because YOU |
Oh damn, Dave's is pissed. |
Yes little boy. I see you have not yet grown up. A MAN takes responsibility. A boy tries to lay the blame anywhere he can. |
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casey's moon
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Am I detecting a personal element to these posts???
If it had happened to me when I was teaching uni classes, I would have felt like crap and thought long and hard about whether or not paying for it was my responsibility. Ultimately, it was the students' responsibility to keep is dictionary safe, by keeping it in a safe place, ie. not where it will get confiscated by the teacher. I don't know if I would have chipped in -- possibly -- but I can't blame nrvs for not wanting to. But then, I don't have any personal grudges against him. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Personally I would have felt mortified in that situation. Clearly the OP didnt do the crime, but the decent comeback would have been to offer half the cash. Getting all snitty about a few man-won will reap ten-fold grief.
I've never had a problem after simply telling my students to put their gadgets away. Maybe the OP needs to work on other ways to garner his students' respect. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Am I detecting a personal element to these posts???
If it had happened to me when I was teaching uni classes, I would have felt like crap and thought long and hard about whether or not paying for it was my responsibility. Ultimately, it was the students' responsibility to keep is dictionary safe, by keeping it in a safe place, ie. not where it will get confiscated by the teacher. I don't know if I would have chipped in -- possibly -- but I can't blame nrvs for not wanting to. But then, I don't have any personal grudges against him.
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Nothing personal in my posts to nrvs - I don't even know him/her/it.
Do I understand correctly? You are saying that even though the teacher confiscated the item - thereby taking physical control of the item and preventing its lawful owner from possessing the item - the teacher assumes no responsibility for its safe keeping????
It seems some may be getting a little bit frustrated with the OP's reluctance to understand the problem with his position on the issue. If you want to see "personal" spend some time reading the Current Events Forum, whoa!
I guess most posters here (and basic civil law in most countries) have different views of the situation described in the OP than you and the poster. Such is the beauty of Dave's.
Take care
Teufelswacht |
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casey's moon
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Teufelswacht wrote: |
| Do I understand correctly? You are saying that even though the teacher confiscated the item - thereby taking physical control of the item and preventing its lawful owner from possessing the item - the teacher assumes no responsibility for its safe keeping???? |
I'm not saying that, no. I'm not sure where I would stand if it was me in the situation instead of nrvs. Like Schwa, I would be mortified. I don't know if I would pay or not. The truth is, I didn't confiscate phones for the first month or so, but I found that it was the ONLY way to get some people to stop -- and I do think they have a responsibility to take care of their own property, including not using it when class is in session!
Maybe I missed something in this thread. I just felt that some people (not you so much) were getting really upset at the OP, and making a lot of judgements on his/her character based on very little information, which is why I felt it must be personal. Maybe there was something that nrvs said that was particularly awful -- but I missed it! |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| casey's moon wrote: |
| Am I detecting a personal element to these posts??? |
Gee, ya think?  Moon, assuming you aren't being cynical, I really don't know why you'd expect this thread to be any different than the rest, which typically escalate into snippy, insult-hurling grudge fests before long. Seriously, pick a thread -- Waifs, Dokdo, Baby Avatars, this one -- you name it. If the people on these boards are, in real life, anything approaching their online personas, then Dave's is really just a collection of malcontents, misfits and hot-heads. Debates here are just excuses to belittle and insult people, compliments are usually backhanded, any advice or help offered is likely to be self-aggrandising at best or accompanied by an implied insult, and nothing on earth is funnier than a stinging put-down.
It was about a year or so ago ... I hadn't joined yet, I think... and I read where someone was asking one of the more prolific and well-known posters whether he'd be going to a Dave's gathering that was being organised. He said probably not, because he wasn't interested in meeting the majority of people who were going to be there. I remember thinking at the time he was a pompous ass for saying that. I didn't know much about Dave's or the posters then, and that just stuck out when I read it.
In the past three or so months, however, I've come to regard him -- Blind Willie -- as level-headed and astute. Sure, BW can still be a bit of a... well, anyway, I certainly share his views anymore.
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| I don't know if I would have chipped in -- possibly -- but I can't blame nrvs for not wanting to. But then, I don't have any personal grudges against him. |
Well get with the programme, then. Look, Costco's having a two-fer sale on personal grudges against NRVS all this month. Interested? ... I'm not.
[I think this qualifies as my first official rant. And what an offbeat thread to have lost it on, too...  Anyway, am I supposed to feel better for having done this now?] |
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d503
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Location: Daecheong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: |
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I have to say that i don't think nrvs had any responsibility towards the dictionary. Growing up most of my schools had the position that contraband items were confiscated. At the end of the year you could go and claim them. If they were there when you got there great, if someone else had claimed them sucks to be you. But it is your fault for bringing a prohibited item into school.
nrvs classroom policy is that electronic dictionaries are contraband, if you bring it in it gets taken. Sucks for you if you forget it and some other kid doesn't, but it is still your responsibility.
If the kids started playing with there yu-gi-oh cards in the middle of class you'd take them. A game is a game, it sucks that it was more expansive than a deck of cards, but it should never have been there. There is a reason things are not allowed in class, they are disruptive and distracting. This isn��t game class it is English class. Maybe next time he will think twice before playing in class |
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casey's moon
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| I think this qualifies as my first official rant. And what an offbeat thread to have lost it on, too... Anyway, am I supposed to feel better for having done this now?] |
Not necessarily, but if you do -- good for you!
Actually, I just reread the thread, trying to see where it all went wrong. It was a very interesting read. Everyone started out supporting the OP, including MOS, and then when they understood what the real matter was (not whether or not he stole the item, but whether or not he was to blame), the flame war started. Strangely, MOS changed his tune completely at that point, and even criticized nrvs for some of the things stated in the OP. It seems people like there is a kind of mob mentality here. Mercury might be interested in the pschology of this particular thread (see various threads started by him in the General Forum as evidence).  |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Teachers -- of all makes -- can be a cranky, bullheaded bunch at times. Including me.
I thought what the OP did was a bit stupid to begin with, I just didn't say it at the time.
Most workplaces have a policy (at least back home) along the lines of, "we are not responsible for lost or stolen items", and I don't think things should be any different for a children's school. I think the director of the school was wrong to take the parent's side rather than support his teacher. But I do think the teacher is at least partly responsible for the item going missing; in his position that's what I would have told the director, and I would have offered to pay 50-100,000 won towards the replacement cost.
He had that option to offer that to his director and explain how he felt about the whole issue. I don;t know the OP personally so I have no reason to hold a grudge against him, however, bragging about how he made his director "back down" doesn't leave much of an impression. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| casey's moon wrote: |
| If it had happened to me when I was teaching uni classes, I would have felt like crap and thought long and hard about whether or not paying for it was my responsibility. Ultimately, it was the students' responsibility to keep is dictionary safe, by keeping it in a safe place, ie. not where it will get confiscated by the teacher. I don't know if I would have chipped in -- possibly -- but I can't blame nrvs for not wanting to. |
Perhaps I am being a bit too critical...I've never been in a teaching position where I've had to confiscate stuff on a regular basis. I know if it had happened to me, I would have felt like crap too and would have thought long and hard about what amount of this was my responsibility.
I know one thing. I'd be seriously irritated at the school director for taking the parent's side rather than believing and trusting me when I say I didn't steal it. And for putting me in a position where I have to control/confiscate this kind of stuff/deal with this kind of stuff on a regular basis, as part of my job. Perhaps the OP felt similarly, and I misinterpreted his attitude to his boss as being too harsh, or as bragging. I don't know.
Last edited by Manner of Speaking on Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Badmojo
Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Location: I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'd have probably acted the same way as the OP. It's true that I took the dictionary from the student, and then that item became my responsibility, but it's only my responsibility during class time. When class is over, I don't want it. Come and get it, it's yours. It's sitting right here on my desk. If you don't, that's your problem. You shouldn't have been using it in the first place.
Now if I took the dictionary and said this thing is mine for the next three days and it got lost, then I would pay for it.
The OP confiscated the dictionary and it was in his charge for the duration of the class and no longer. After the class finished, it's the student's responsibilty to claim it.
Such is the judgement in the high courts of Badmojo. |
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