Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Universalis]

Some thoughts on language learning and teaching...

Am I alone in thinking that no matter how good a teacher is in class, unless the students spend the necessary hours outside of class hitting the books and practicing speaking, they aren't going to improve much? And on the flip side, if the students do bust their asses in and outside of class, wouldn't they then improve regardless of the teachers ability (or lack thereof)?

For example, my Korean has improved a lot over the past 6 months, and I'd attribute that to the several hours each day I spend studying rather than to the two Korean teachers I've had over that time (in February and March). The teachers are OK... but I find the chance to speak Korean with other Korean students to be far more valuable then grammar lessons from the teacher.

So obviously, the best-case scenario would be a confluence of a good teacher with good students... but what are the chances of that happening?

As a teacher, I feel obligated to do my best, of course, but where's the joy of teaching when the learning is barely there?

Comments?

Brian

[Vince]

It's virtuous of us to enter new classes with the belief that every student has good potential, but it's just as naive of us to continue to think so as the term goes on and evidence to the contrary accumulates. We learn who has aptitude, who has drive, and who is wasting the classroom's space. There's usually one or two students who stand out, and those are the ones who make your efforts worthwhile. Continue to offer a good language lesson to everybody (I know you do), but always keep a little special space for that extraordinary student.

[manlyboy]

They know it. We know it. The thing that a lot of us don't know is that exposure to foreigners is the real drawcard for language schools. They could learn English well enough without us, but unlike those of us from multicultural societies, for Koreans, how to interact with foreigners needs to be learned. The hermit kingdom mentality is alive and well here, and parents fear their kids' futures will be restricted by that. I know foreign women here who get paid quite well to hold Korean babies and sing to them in English. The mother's aren't concerned about the English, they just want their kids to get used to being around and dealing with the strange blonde beasts. How else could Koreans get this exposure besides hiring us en masse as English teachers?

[Daechidong Waygookin]

What futility?

I go, I teach, they pay me. Thats not futile.

[the_beaver]

Not futile for me. I don't expect students to improve their language appreciably in my class and I tell them that and the reasons why and we all get along just fine.

I do, however, focus on teaching metacognitive strategies and learner autonomy -- I teach them a few things to think about and what they have to do in order to reach their goals.

[agraham]

Hopefully you have those precious few students who really put in serious effort.
I had one of those girls that refuses to say even one word. Only sits there are smiles. She left our school months ago, but the other day I saw her in the cafe with some friends. I said "hello, how are you". She shook her head vigorously to say I can't answer. He friend poked her and said "I'm fine, how are you?", but she still wouldn't reply.
Six months at the hagwon and not even a hello.
Ah well, can't win 'em all.

[matthewwoodford]

I agree students have to put the effort to study in and without that nothing will do much good. The worst classes I can think of are middle school students, cos it's an uphill struggle trying to engage their interest. Perhaps that really is futile, but other than that everyone knows students learn faster in good classes, and good teachers can even motivate lacklustre students. For motivated students, even mediocre classes can help just because they force you to put some time aside for study. I was going to say 'bad classes can help' but maybe not if you get taught something just plain wrong!

To the OP: I thought at first you were saying grammar lessons are a waste of time but I guess you weren't. I envy people who can 'pick up' languages naturally without seeming to go through the process of poring through grammar books - but perhaps you study the grammar by yourself? To me at least, the grammar takes some getting your head around, especially at first.

Is your class anything like the Ganada or YBM ones? The teacher lays out a structure on the board (I like that bit), then goes round the whole class asking each student to come up with an example sentence out of context (laborious, boring, sometimes painful). Grammar lessons don't have to be like that.

[Universalis]

Thanks for all the comments, guys.

I don't know... I've been in a bit of a funk these past few months, partly because of a string of bad incidents with students. For example:

Practicing first and second conditionals, the students actively avoided any sort of follow-up questions or discussion. It was just a string of "If this... that," "If this... that," "If this... that." So a lesson that I had planned to last 25+ minutes was over in half the time. In order to fill in the time, I had to ask questions directly, which they refused to answer.

Another class... with an odd number of students. We were doing some pair-work and I offered to work with the extra student... but she broke into laughter at the suggestion and pleaded to work with someone else. Besides demonstrating poor study habits, it's pretty fucking rude. Am I a two-headed leper that eats children for lunch?

In a recent low-level writing class, time and time again the students would make the same mistakes no matter how many times I tried to correct them. Now, writing is quite a bit different from speaking... it's possible to sit down and make a real effort to be grammatically correct, a luxury that you rarely have when you are speaking. With enough time, a dictionary, and the effort, it's quite possible for a second language learner to write in a manner that goes far beyond their speaking ability. But it seemed like the students simply were not trying... they were content to merely scribble out some crummy essay using a mixed bag of incorrect verb tenses, bad spelling, fragments, and haphazard punctuation and calling it an English essay. Like why the heck do I even bother checking this kind of work?

And once, during some pair work involving comparing two different countries and choosing a travel destination, one pair didn't feel like talking because they were "not interested" in the two countries involved. That kind of attitude will really take them far...

Another part of the problem is my recent experience as a student in Korean class. The difference between our Korean-language students and the English-language students is like night and day. My classmates in Korean class are highly motivated, diligent with good attendance, creative, and fun. A lot of the students of English I see are not very motivated, not very diligent, not so creative, and, frankly, boring. Give me some activity - any activity - in Korean class and watch me run with it. If it's of interest to me, I'll talk about it. If it isn't, I'll talk about it (but I may try to move the conversation in a direction I find more agreeable). Either way, I take advantage of every opportunity I have to speak Korean in class, because that's what I'm there for. It's good for me, and I'm sure it makes the class a heck of a lot more interesting and easier for the teacher. Meanwhile, Korean students of English see every group activity as some sort of race to the finish. "We're finished!" they yell, as if it's time for me once again to start entertaining them with my brilliant wit and killer smile. In my 2 months of Korean class, not once did I ever hear a student say "we're finished." The students practiced their Korean until the teacher told them to stop. So I compare my Korean-language classes to my English-language classes and that brings me down too.

As one commentator pointed out, a good teacher can motivate his students to be better students. And maybe that's where I should devote some attention... towards motivating my students.

And as the Beaver said, perhaps it's not a bad idea for me to devote some time to learning strategies... I could very easily speak from my own experiences at studying Korean.

Thanks again for all your comments,

Brian

[crazylemongirl]

[dogbert]

I thought the OP ran a board game cafe.

[Ya-ta Boy]

You sound like you are suffering from burn-out. It's an occupational hazard. And tough to deal with.

Motivation, or the lack of it, is the key to learning. If a student is self-motivated, he will learn more. If he learns more, he will be even more motivated. If he's more motivated, he will get into a better school. If he gets into a better school, he might get a better job. If he gets a better job, he could marry a beautiful wife. If he marries a beautiful wife, he will have a better sex life at home. If he has a good sex life at home he can save money at the dalenjujom. ( )

Competition and rewards are also effective motivators. Nothing is perfect and works all the time, but they help.

[Rock]

I used to think the same, still do at times. But honestly, I'm not as gungho at getting them to learn as much as I am making it an exciting class. Hopefully, they'll enjoy the school and learn from there.

You never know too, how much you're really putting into it, into their speaking ability. I knew a young girl who'd studied at a hagwon where I'd worked. She'd attended the school for five years, three or four prior to my arrival. She never spoke much, and couldn't.

Then my last year there, she started to speak in sentences. She began to use what she'd learned, started to hold conversations. Eventually, she got chosen to go to an international school in Busan, and I'm sure, is now a success.

No previous teacher knew of her success or what they'd contributed to, but they did make a contribution. I think of myself in the same light.

[desultude]

I was in teaching in a program where we had the same students for semester after semester. I was able to see great changes in a few of them in terms of writing ( what I mainly teach) and was thrilled when one of my long term students got into the exchange program for the U.S.

Yes, it is really incremental and sometimes barely noticeable, but the cumulative effect of all of the classes some of the students get can make a real difference. Of course, some are just hopeless wretches. Take hope where you can.

[coolsage]

This might be scaling the foothills of off-topic, but it needs expressing. A colleague of mine, Canadian guy, has been in Korea for thirteen years, probably close to a record. Married to a Korean woman, three sons, 10, 8, 6 years old. I asked him if they spoke English. No, he replied, we use Korean at home. Without wanting to press him as to how three half-Canadian kids have no English, he ventured that as a student of Korean literature, he wanted only Korean in his life. Without considering that even with English spoken at home, about 90% of their little lives are lived in Korean, he has deprived these kids at a unique opportunity to become bilingual. This verges on child neglect. For someone involved in language teaching, he clearly knows squat about language acquisition. Needless to say, I have lost respect for this man.

[SuperHero]