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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| I'm tired of the PC notion of inclusion when it means dumping everyone into the same classroom and forcing the teacher to teach to the middle, leaving the strongest and the weakest to sink or swim. |
This happens the world over not just in Korea. Public schools are the haven of mediocrity. They really dont have any choice. When you have a bunch of students in a class you dont teach to the top 10% nor do you teach to the bottom 10% If you are a good teacher you try to include all the students and if you work hard you will also make some extra work for the brighter students in the class in order to challenge them.
Canadian classrooms are totally PC inclusion. I dont agree with it but there is little I can do about it.
If you can show me an education system anywhere in the world that is efficient and maximizes the return on the investment I would love to see it. Unfortunately this is the real world and not a utopia. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
bosintang wrote
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| A properly trained non-native EFL-teacher is just as efficient, if not more so, then a poorly trained native teacher |
Nope. You are way off base here. Even a Korean with a doctorate in English still does not have the mastery of the language that an average native speaker has. Not only is a native speaker immersed in the language their entire life they also study it in school for a minimum of 16 years. They use it on a daily basis.
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The whole point of a bootcamp would be to get Korean teachers or assistants up to speed on modern teaching methods and to develop the confidence to use and teach English as the primary classroom language. They don't need to speak English perfectly. They would be teaching communication in a second language, not teaching the children to write the great English novel of the 21st century.
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Just having a native speaker available in the school gives them the opportunity to use some of the English they learn.
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They could use this with a non-native speaker if the non-native speaker used child-centred teaching methods and were confident enough to to teach in a primary-English environment.
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Now to rebut some of your uninformed comments:
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I assure you I have no clout with the Ministry of Education and I'm almost as certain that nobody there is reading this. You don't have to take it so personally. I threw out this idea for academic sake, you know, like, wondering how things could be better? Wondering why if English is such a dominant world language and so important that I don't hear quotes like the one in my signature about, well, any other country in the world? Or Why Korea has it's own separate forum on Dave's Cafe?
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| The hiring could be centralised by the Ministry of Education, could it not? |
The people at the ministry of education have less knowledge of English than the Korean teachers at the schools. What makes you think a 60 year old Korean who doesnt speak any English is qualified to choose and place English teachers?
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This is rather technical..if the Ministry of Education was interested in a project like this, they could use a consulting agency or a dozen other ways to get the initial staff to start the hiring and training process.
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| But if they hired teaching assistants rather than teachers, could they not focus on people who already have a higher-level of English and spend a couple of months improving their English and learning modern English-teaching methods? |
English cannot be mastered in a couple of months..regarless of how high a level of English the Korean has. Also the fact of the matter is that they just dont have near enough people with English skills approaching this level to even try it.
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Again, it's not about 'mastering' the language. It's about developing confidence to use it as as the primary classroom language. I'm sure if you put college grads with higher level English skills through 2-3months of intense language immersion, they'd be conversational or even fluent enough to teach primary school.
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| I do think native speakers are useful, but one of the points of my OP is that not everybody needs access to a foreign teacher. As well, again, foreign teachers can be used in a more limited role (1-2 times a year versus 20-30times). |
The best way to learn English is through repetition. Exposure to proper English once or twice a year would be a total waste of money.
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You missed the point. The foreign teacher would not be there in a primary teaching role, but as a guest teacher, to give that oh-so-necessary foreign exposure to every student. You know, like a morale booster, like in the military when a general comes down to visit the troops in his ranks to tell them what a good job they're doing and to keep up the good work.
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| As far as children who can't afford to have access to a native speaker, with the money saved from not employing foreigners in public schools perhaps they could add more burseries for underpriviledged children to places like the English Villages that are popping up around Korea. |
Again you are severely limiting the amount of exposure to high quality English to the vast majority of Korean children.
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In a perfect Korean English-teaching world, Koreans would have a GDP four times as high as ours and they could have a regular highly-trained native speaker for every 5-10 students. This is the real world, and exposure to a native speaker who may or may not know how to teach in an overcrowded classroom is about as far from perfect as it gets.
Maybe it's because I'm in the hagwon world but "Hello, How are youuuuuuuuu?" fails to impress me.
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very elitist Ya Ta Boy
Why stop there? Why not test every child and put them in the areas that they show an aptitude for.
Ahhh you did not show an aptitude for English. We will not waste time or money trying to train you. No it does not matter how badly you want to learn English. You showed an aptitude for math so we will make you study more math. Oh whats that? You hate math and love English...well that is just too bad for you isnt it?
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There's middle-ground here...the students who show aptitude for learning English get the high-priced English education in middle and high schools, the students who don't would continue with the same grammar lessons they currently receive and spend their money at the hagwons if they have it.
In fact this happens already with foreign language high schools.
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Canadian classrooms are totally PC inclusion. I dont agree with it but there is little I can do about it.
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In Canada, at least in most provinces, by high school children have options to go into higher-level classes (International Baccalaureate) or more hands-on-career classes for the slower academic learners. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Public schools are the haven of mediocrity. They really dont have any choice. When you have a bunch of students in a class you dont teach to the top 10% nor do you teach to the bottom 10% If you are a good teacher you try to include all the students and if you work hard you will also make some extra work for the brighter students in the class in order to challenge them.
Canadian classrooms are totally PC inclusion. I dont agree with it but there is little I can do about it.
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I'm having trouble figuring out what you are saying. In one post you accuse me of elitism for suggesting a tracking system and in this one you say you are against inclusion. Even some hakwons, those bastions of enlightened education, put students in levels.
What are you for?
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| make some extra work for the brighter students in the class in order to challenge them |
I've been teaching for 30 years. From my experience, spending the hour teaching to the middle and supplementing the lesson with a scrap for the strong students is a lousy compromise. The strong students have a right to a lesson designed for them. In the real world, the instructional time is spent with the weaker students, while the strong ones twiddle their thumbs. |
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hari seldon
Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I'll say one thing: most of the Korean English teachers who haven't studied abroad aren't worth jack. They don't even have the cadence right. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Hell, my co teacher says " Openur book to pagie 34" ( slurred n and added syllable are approximate spellings. She's a really nice girl, but fresh out of uni and she stumbled into the wrong job I think. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Dont worry about it Peppermint there are posters here who think that could be solved with an intensive 3 or 4 month immersion program for the Korean teachers   |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| This term I've been co-teaching the 5th grade classes with their homeroom teachers. At first, I offered to do all the teaching and let the homeroom teachers hang back, which they all gladly accepted. It was working great until the Principal found out and insisted it be team teaching, which has created a lot of unnecessary problems. What has really surprised me is not how poor their English is, but how completely unfamiliar they are with the concept of learner-centered teaching. They just don't seem to get it at all. What used to be a simple two sentence instruction in English followed by a five minute activity ends up being a five minute lecture in Korean followed by a thirty second activity! |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I've been teaching for 30 years. From my experience, spending the hour teaching to the middle and supplementing the lesson with a scrap for the strong students is a lousy compromise. The strong students have a right to a lesson designed for them. In the real world, the instructional time is spent with the weaker students, while the strong ones twiddle their thumbs. |
I don't have your experience, but I've worked as a uni TA, a volunteer at a Canadian school, and a hogwan clown, and I can't say how much I agree with this sentiment. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Would you rather be taught Spanish by a person of Hispanic heritage, or a whitey from Wisconsin? Would you rather be taught French from a person from Lyons, France or Paris, Texas? Would you rather be taught German by a person etc., etc., etc.....
The original post is simply foolish. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
Would you rather be taught Spanish by a person of Hispanic heritage, or a whitey from Wisconsin? Would you rather be taught French from a person from Lyons, France or Paris, Texas? Would you rather be taught German by a person etc., etc., etc.....
The original post is simply foolish. |
This depends on my level. I'd rather be taught French by a Frenchwoman because I can understand enough to get by already, and would want someone who speaks it perfectly. I'd rather be taught Spanish by the Wisconsinion (sp??), unless it was a Spaniard who had a very high level of English, because apart from 'binga tu madre' I don't know a word. |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd rather be taught Spanish by the Wisconsinion (sp??), unless it was a Spaniard who had a very high level of English, because apart from 'binga tu madre' I don't know a word. |
But the situation in Korea differs. Most Korean students (by the third grade) do know "enough" English to be enrolled in full-immersion programs (provided they're put in the appropriate level). All they really need to know is "Sit down" and "Shut up" and a teacher worth his or her salt can manage the rest.
I would agree, however, that it does more harm than good to enroll kindergarten students in a native-teacher-only environment (although I don't think this is happening [much] in Korea, anyway). Kids at that age [typically] don't have the necessary social skills to function (or reap the benefits) of those peculiar institutions. |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| manlyboy wrote: |
| This term I've been co-teaching the 5th grade classes with their homeroom teachers. At first, I offered to do all the teaching and let the homeroom teachers hang back, which they all gladly accepted. It was working great until the Principal found out and insisted it be team teaching, which has created a lot of unnecessary problems. What has really surprised me is not how poor their English is, but how completely unfamiliar they are with the concept of learner-centered teaching. They just don't seem to get it at all. What used to be a simple two sentence instruction in English followed by a five minute activity ends up being a five minute lecture in Korean followed by a thirty second activity! |
The whole "lecture them in Korean until they understand the English" is how the korean teachers are taught to teach. I remember my old boss (with whom I could barely have a conversation despite having taught for 10 years in public schools) printing out a whole list of obscure English proverbs and have a whole class dedicated to parseing the meaning of them (99% in Korean of course). I still haven't figured out what that was supposed to teach. Do they expect students who can barely string together a sentence to be able to use proverbs about the wisdom of Solomon or whatever in a conversation? |
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Toby
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Wedded Bliss
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Public School Madness |
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| bosintang wrote: |
Does it make sense hiring native speakers in public schools? With class sizes of 40-45 students one time a week, with a good percentage of foreign teachers ill-properly trained, why bother? What exactly are you public school teachers accomplishing?
In a country with a lagging economy and high youth unemployment, it would make more sense to me to put young Korean uni grads through English bootcamps and get them up to speed on proper English-teaching certification. If you did that you could phase out native speakers rather than bring in even more, and for the same price you could have at least two Korean English-teachers for the price of one foreign teacher. In the beginning, these teachers could act in much the same role as foreign teachers do now, but over the course of a few years the English curriculum could be refined around them.
Korean public schools could eliminate current contract, visa, and recruiting headaches, and get better value for their money. Leave native speakers for the hagwons and people willing to pay for them. |
What a totally inane and dumb post.
Let's just look at hakwons and real schools for a second.
Students go to akwons because their parents pay for them to go whether they like it or not. Foriegn teachers have no authority or say in what is going on in the school 99% of the time. They teach mickey mouse books that are terrible and are paid to teach them painfully slowly to drag the process out so the school keeps making money.
Hakwon owners are often liars and will fleece anybody or anyting that they can if it is going to save them money. How many horror stories do you read on here daily about another fleecing? There are of course exceptions to the rule, but in this case, only a very few.
Public schools. Take mine as an example. I am the only foreigner here. Wondeful. Middle school girls. Third grade, I use the book, teaching te dialogue. Good fun. If I finish early, photocopy sheets. First and second grade, my choice what I teach. There is no-one breathing down my back about their progress. No-one asking for progress reports or planning sheets. No-one checking my every move. No-one trying to find a way to fleece me.
15 classes, once a week each, paid hourly. The school doesn't give me anything apart from that hourly pay, plus any extra classes that I teach. Paid on time. Respect from the other teachers. Infact, I teach the other teachers, who pay me voluntarily to do so. Infact, I teach the principal. I have generated a lot of interest through my techniques in girls that otherwise have no desire to learn. I have the respect of 500 students.
Hakwons should close down. Students learn very little there. More focus should go integrating foreigners in every school and have a lot of class time with the students. I would happily double my hours every week. A class of 35 students is a whole heap more fun to teach than a small group. The dynamics are amazing and if you have good discipline skills, then it really is good fun.
So. OP. You, in my opinion, may as well go talk uot of your ass somewhere else, as you have no clue about public schools. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Would you rather be taught Spanish by a person of Hispanic heritage, or a whitey from Wisconsin? Would you rather be taught French from a person from Lyons, France or Paris, Texas? Would you rather be taught German by a person etc., etc., etc.....
The original post is simply foolish.
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In the high school in the US where I used to teach, the Spanish teacher is a whitey from Pennsylvania. She does a bang-up job. Would the kids benefit from firing her and flying in a native speaker from Spain, paying her a higher salary and provide an apartment? I don't see how, unless the import is a superior teacher. It's the quality of teaching, not the place of birth that is key. |
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UncleAlex
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 1:25 am Post subject: Public School Gladness |
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I have been teaching in Korean public schools since 1998. My presence
there has been a treat to Korean students who enjoy having native
English teachers. Our whole approach to teaching is student-centered
and activity based, unlike the Korean methodology of flipping pages of a
text book and lecturing in Korean with a microphone. Where I have been
the students' average grade in English increased by the end of the year.
That's because native English teachers serve to motivate the kids in learn-
ing English by making it both interesting and enjoyable. Also, language is
closely connected with culture - something we can communicate by our
presence. Many of my students have corresponded with me on the net,
since they are interested in learning about Western culture and the country
I'm from. Concerning hiring Korean U students at public schools to replace
us, I think it's a bad idea. For their English speaking ability is just as bad as
that of the certified Korean English teachers, if not worse. And I'm sure these
grads would be talking in their native language most of the time, having given up
trying to communicate some information in English out of frustration. The
Superintendant of Education I worked for last year told me that she wanted
nothing more from me than to motivate the students, get them to like learning
English, and encourage them to listen and speak in English only while in class.
That's basically why we are here. Anyone with a college degree, enough intelligence
and common sense, and instinct can do the job. Keep up the good fight. fellow
public school native English teachers!  |
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