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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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 Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| However, can is not the appropriate way to ask for permission in all situations. In the classroom, with persons of respect, and other places, can is an impolite form to use. Equivalent to 'yeah.' I teach my kids the distinction (well the ones who are past memorizing stock phrases) Korean kids are used to this distinction, their native tongue is rife with it |
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Yes. Finally the correct answer surfaces.
And anyway, I thought I already shed some light on this debate with this tater gem:
The Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage summed the distinction of can/may quite frankly by stating,
"In formal English a distinction is drawn between can and may. Can is used when indicating physical ability to do something: 'I can jump more than five feet.' May is used when indicating permission to do something: 'You may stay home from school tomorrow.'
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| However, it is only fair to say that the distinction is often ignored, especially in informal speech and writing. That's rather a pity, for the distinction is a nice one -and not really very hard to remember." |
Game. Set. Match. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
| Yes. Finally the correct answer surfaces. |
I disagree that it is impolite, but rather agree with the grammar books in that "may" is simply more polite.
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And anyway, I thought I already shed some light on this debate with this tater gem:
The Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage summed the distinction of can/may quite frankly by stating, |
It was published in 1988. Seventeen years is a pretty long time. It would be hard to argue that they are up to date on a current grammar use that we all agree is rather new in its total acceptance. Further, a dictionary tells us how words are being used, not how they should be used. A paperback edition was published in 1992, but I could find no evidence that there were any changes between the two versions.
Example: Primary image by the populace when thinking what a "hacker" is.
1965 - Person who builds furniture with an axe.
1975 - Person who can not use a computer but tries.
1985 - Person who can use a computer quite well, often for tinkering or programming.
1995 - Person who attempts to circumvent passwords on computers.
2005 - Person who uses computers for generally unlawful acts.
When newspapers write about hackers committing crimes, do you fear the furniture builders? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Symantics change over time. Conceded. Grammar changes over time. Conceded.
Using "may" and "can" indiscriminantly and interchangeably is OK? Not in the classroom. Requiring students to use "May I" in the classroom, at the very least, reinforces the teachers' position as leader/authority figure and that, in and of itself, is reason enough to emphasize the difference. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| If you seem to think that teaching the correct grammatical rules is a waste of time, then I think that you are not only fooling yourself |
OK, all of you with this attitude, please define your two favorite words -- "correct" and "proper" -- as they regard rules about a language. |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| The language changed. Denying it will not force the world to conform to your wishes. |
Accepting and understanding that languages change and wanting to hasten the process by deliberately losing (through laziness) words which have useful distinctions are two very different things.
As Mac the Knife has pointed out very well, the use of "can" and "may" serve a very useful distinction, and while people like Gord would like to think that the language has already changed, according to the link below it hasn't happened yet. Even in America.
From http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/auxiliary.htm (which would appear to be an American source)
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Whether the auxiliary verb can can be used to express permission or not �� "Can I leave the room now?" ["I don't know if you can, but you may."] �� depends on the level of formality of your text or situation. As Theodore Bernstein puts it in The Careful Writer [1998], "a writer who is attentive to the proprieties will preserve the traditional distinction: can for ability or power to do something, may for permission to do it.
The question is at what level can you safely ignore the "proprieties." Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, tenth edition, says the battle is over and can can be used in virtually any situation to express or ask for permission. Most authorities, however, recommend a stricter adherence to the distinction, at least in formal situations. |
(bold font added)
"Can" and "may" are not equal and, especially in the classroom, the distinction should be preserved. |
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fidel
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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So I think we all agree that using can to ask for permission is gramatically correct. Okay? Fine!
I don't think anyone here argued that 'may' wasn't more formal.  Whether or not you choose to make your students use 'may' in the classroom is entirely up to you.
I'm glad that's all settled then unless anyone has anything else to add... |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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My cats breath smells like catfood  |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well, back to my original post. Why make a unit entitled "Can I have some water?" when clearly the can/may issue is NOT resolved (in the academic world). Think it is? Think again. Fish around on the internet. This debate has not yet grown cold.
Bottom line:
Elementary school students' English is not proficient enough to start teaching them every exception to every rule. Yes, I could teach my kids "ain't" simply because approximately 100 million southerners in America say it on a daily basis, but....they have a hard enough time with the basics. Yes, the basic can/may rule here has clearly blurred (over the last few decades); however, there will always be some teacher out there (like me) who gets irritated when a student uses "can" instead of "may". There will never be a teacher who gets irritated when a student uses "may" in the proper context. Why set these kids up for a pedagogical smack-down? |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
| There will never be a teacher who gets irritated when a student uses "may" in the proper context. Why set these kids up for a pedagogical smack-down? |
I get irritated when you throw around the word "proper" without defining it. What are your criteria for propriety?
I would urge my students to use English the way native speakers use it, and that means correcting them if they use "may" every time they ask for permission. When they are role-playing maids and butlers (hasn't happened yet in my class) they can use "may". In most other situations, they may use "can". |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I get irritated when you throw around the word "proper" without defining it |
Joe gets irritated. Jesus...I thought this one was a no-brainer...and I think most folks found it so.
Example of improper (grammatically incorrect) usage of "may":
"May you....." instead of "Can you...." in a sentence like "May you drive?" when implying ability. Yes, it happens.
Does that clear things up a bit? |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| I would urge my students to use English the way native speakers use it, and that means correcting them if they use "may" every time they ask for permission. |
True enough, and I agree with your point. Just remember that "native speakers" use English in a lot of ways. As was mentioned here (and I think in the thread about aeroplanes), it's fine to push for "may" or "can" or whatever, but whenever possible make sure you pass along why what you're saying is "right." And if they're too young to understand, or if you're "right" b/c you're the defacto authority figure, make sure you are considering these issues yourself.
(Not "you" joe, just "you all" in general.) |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
| Well, back to my original post. Why make a unit entitled "Can I have some water?" when clearly the can/may issue is NOT resolved (in the academic world). Think it is? Think again. Fish around on the internet. This debate has not yet grown cold. |
But the debate is over. Every recognized source quoted in this thread from a recent source says it's fine. I agree that some people do not wish to recognize the usage of "can" in requesting persmission, but then there are some people who also believe that saying "Hello" to someone you have no been formally introduced to is impolite (another fine example of how out language has changed).
Your issue is that of the level of politeness and not grammar, but whether something is polite enough should not be an issue. One could argue that anything less than "Excuse me, Mr. Teacher Sir, may I please be allowed to go and drink a glass of water?" is offensive. By claiming "can I have some water?" is incorrect, you aren't teaching English how it is spoken but rather how English would be spoken if you were king of the world.
While teaching them "Can I have some water?" is wrong, be sure to tell them to answer the phone with "ahoy" as that is the way things used to be done and slap anyone who says "won't". |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| But the debate is over. Every recognized source quoted in this thread from a recent source says it's fine |
And for every source quoted on this board I can find a link which says otherwise.
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| The same source implies that the rule is weakening, but that formal standard usage still insists on the distinction between can and may. The last applicable source, Practical English Usage -new edition, reiterated much the same information already stated with one exceptional twist. When talking about permission already given or refused, about freedom which people already have, or about rules and laws, can is the preferred modal auxiliary |
Game. Set. Match.
Formal English requires the distinction; ergo, we should teach the distinction in the classroom so as to properly guide our young Padawan learners. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
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| I get irritated when you throw around the word "proper" without defining it |
Joe gets irritated. Jesus...I thought this one was a no-brainer...and I think most folks found it so.
Example of improper (grammatically incorrect) usage of "may":
"May you....." instead of "Can you...." in a sentence like "May you drive?" when implying ability. Yes, it happens.
Does that clear things up a bit? |
No. What are your CRITERIA for propriety? Most dictionaries, for instance, require that a word be used in two or more published works by different authors before adding the word to the language. What, in your eyes, makes a grammatical rule "proper"? Apparently being used by native speakers isn't it? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| What, in your eyes, makes a grammatical rule "proper"? |
Well, for instance, the fact that many authorities still consider it thus.*
*See previous post. |
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