Korean Job Discussion Forums

[desultude]

Last night my grad students asked me two grammar questions that I would like some feedback on.

The first was this sentence:
"I don't like you smoking here." The book they use in their high school classes says that "I don't like your smoking here." is correct. I think the first is correct, but could not really explain why. It seems like there is a change of emphasis, for one thing, but otherwise the second sentence just seems wrong and awkward. But these are not exactly grammatical reasons. Can anyone parse the sentence for me?

The second is the use of fewer and less. In the grocery lines, where there is English, there are signs that say "less than 10 items". They felt that it should be "fewer". I think that they can both be used. Any thoughts?

[No L]

I think these are examples where native speakers are so used to the incorrect usage that it sounds better to us than the grammatically correct sentence.

[Hater Depot]

"Less Than 10 Items" really bugs me--it implies you could have half an item. Unfortunately it's here to stay.

[thorin]

I think the book is correct.

(From Swan)
Less is the comparative of little (used especially before uncountable nouns).
Fewer is the comparative of few (used before plural nouns).

You didn't specify what kind of class you're teaching. If they're studying for some grammar test, then you'll obviously want to teach them what's "correct". If you're teaching conversation, your students will probably appreciate your ability to point out differences in grammar that they've learned and common usage, i.e., go by your ear..

[peppermint]

[desultude]

[R. S. Refugee]

edit

[Wangja]

I was always that "your xx-ing" was correct.

[joe_doufu]

[kimchikowboy]

Kudos to your students!!! They were right on both parts. We use a possessive before gerunds.
I don't have much time now, but both of these are commonly used in the sentence correction section of GMAT (and designed to trap native speakers). As you'll probably be getting more of these types of questions from your obviously bright charges, I'd suggest picking up a couple of GMAT study guides and reviewing the sentence correction sections (I used to like Heinle & Heinle, but I taught GMAT a long time ago). You might even be able to use some of the practice tests with your class.
Please pass my compliments on to the students.

[desultude]

I just came across what I think is the answer in a grammar book (Morenberg, Doing Grammar p.193-216).

I think that "your smoking here" is a gerund phrase with a subject in the possessive, or genitive form (the book uses genetive for what we usually call possessive, or 's form).

Their example is:

"Willie Nelson's singing still enthralls audiences."

or:

"Audiences still like Willie Nelson's singing."



BUT:
It could be that "you smoking here" is a gerund phrase reduced from the subordinate clause "that you are smoking here". For example:

"I don't like it that you are smoking here."

Independent clauses;

"You are smoking here."
"I don't like it."

"I don't like it" "that you are smoking here."
(independent clause) (subordinate clause)

"I don't like that you are smoking here."

"I don't like you smoking here."


Now I am thinking that both are correct.

[hypnotist]

Marks and Spencer in the UK does actually have tills marked "x items or fewer".

I think in terms of the no smoking sentence either are correct for the reasons you list, Des, but not using the possessive calls to mind the old joke:

"Do you smoke after sex?"
"I don't know - I've never looked..."

[visviva]

Grammar exists to explain real usage; real usage is not obliged to satisfy non-communicative grammatical constraints.

If grammatical rules suggest that commonly-used structures like "less than 10 items" are incorrect, that simply indicates that those rules are obsolete. As teachers of a living language, we need to be prepared (and prepare our students) for that language to change.

As people who prepare our students for grammar tests, of course, we are effectively teaching a dead language, so it doesn't really matter.

[thorin]

As for usage, it sounds like it depends on whether the person is smoking in the U.S. or England.

[Wangja]