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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Here's an article on militant Buddhists:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/february2005/rogers.htm
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| Within the last two years, extremist Buddhists have attacked at least 160 churches in Sri Lanka. An estimated 140 churches have closed as a result of violence and intimidation, and in some places Christians are forced to worship in secret—in the middle of the night—for fear of being discovered and attacked. In January last year, at least four Catholic churches were attacked. In one, the tabernacle was smashed open and the hosts scattered on the floor. In another, the pews were burned. |
Zoroastrians too, oh my!
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533AD:
Spring brings the Zoroastrian army into Aleppo. The regions only defender, the Dux of Galatia, falls back into the port fortress of Cyrrhos.
Kharakhum realized he needed to take the fortress to pacify the region. Offering prayers to Ahura Mazda for success Kharakhum��s prayers were answered when he saw the Sassanid army of Emperor Shapur IV march into view. Shapur had sent Yazdegard south into Lebanon with the mercenaries while he brought the Sassanid national army here to help taking Aleppo.
The Dux��s 3,000 warriors were not able to hold off the combined armies that stormed the fortress. Though the attackers did take fairly heavy casualties. Inside the fortresses walls there was the Monastery of Cyrrhos. The Zoroastrian troops slaughtered every priest, looted the monastery and burned it down. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
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| How many of us Westerners prefer sharia law over what we've got now? That's what we risk having if we allow Muslims to outnumber us. |
As said, ignorance and bigotry - very dangerous. |
I know your epithets are meant to be a pox on both houses. |
Describing your views as evidence of ignorance and bigotry - this is not an epithet, but rather a note of caution extended toward you. You have admitted your error earlier on this very page with regard to your misconception about the length of time the 9/11 terrorists had stayed in the US prior to their little atrocity exhibition, and you even came close to thanking Bucheon Bum for the favor of setting you straight. Earlier, shak over there showed how easy it is to be wrong about extremists on our side of the pond by using the word 'anecdotal' in reference to violence committed against a film from the US depicting Christian themes, violence that the record of history shows was far more extensive than the single instance which I originally conveyed.
And Les, I do recall a discussion with you several months ago in which I had to do a little of the 'net research you really ought to have done yourself in order to show you that sharia law, as oppressive as it really is, does not include or prescribe female circumcision. And I recall that you did have the good grace to thank me at that time for the new information.
Not knowing things you really ought to know when you talk about them is sort of, well, an example of ignorance - no shame in it if you are willing to listen and learn from the world, though. However, when you allow preconceptions and fears about groups of people (about whom your knowledge is limited) to filter and adapt the new information that comes in according to channels that don't conform to the real world ... that is at least the early glimmers of the beginnings of bigotry, and there's a reason we so often use the two words in tandem as I did earlier today.
And I'm not immune from these kind of gymnastics of logic, and never have I intended to imply that I am. It's something important enough that we need to keep an eye on it, though.
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| But I choose sides. So that makes me a bigot? OK. I'll accept the abuse. |
Actually, you've done more than choose sides. You've created a massive culture war out of little more than whole cloth and the senseless death of a single filmmaker, who himself might or might not have harbored bigoted attitudes.
And I didn't call you a bigot. I warned about ignorance and bigotry - this speaks of the ideas you carry and express, which might either be maleable or even imperfectly expressed. It's only abuse if you think it needs to be.
Your statement above about sharia law being imposed in the West is pretty near indefensible considering it is in effect today in only a small number of muslim countries. It smacks of fearmongering, even hate-mongering, and my intent was for you to ask yourself how logical a statement it was, and whether you really meant it.
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| I refuse to live within your emasculated paradigm. Or is that emasculating? |
You may need to expalin more clearly the connection between *beep* and oppposition to muslim immigration. Offhand, it just seems a little wierd, and I wonder if you meant it as a joke.
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| Van Gogh's murder an isolated incident. Is that The Bobster's clever way of trying not to say "tip of the iceberg"? |
No, it's The Bobster's way of asking if you think there's a trend in the making. I haven't seen it. Someone mentioned the guy who translated The Satanic Verses into Japanese as being offed, but he didn't provide a link and I confess I'm not familiar with the facts there.
If you think there's a huge iceberg about to hit us, don't we need some sonar reading or something, some kind of evidence You are sounding the alarm, so please feel free to finish the job and sell us your product. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Interesting, mith.
Thanks.
When a Buddhist says these kinds of outrages go against Buddhist teachings, I believe it. And I suppose that, since I am a Catholic, I should be foaming at the mouth for revenge. Yet, I am not. (Though I am appalled.) Nor does it strike fear into me, as do similar (and worse) acts done by Muslims. There is no Buddhist invasion of Europe and the West. Ohhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmm.
Zoarastrian atrocities. I was not aware of that. That wasn't from Procopius, was it? I'm pretty sure the author meant Persian army. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Well, it's anyone's guess how they turned 'you should relieve yourself of attachments to escape suffering' into 'burn them Catholic churches down'.  |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: ... |
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Of course I'd ban the Zoroastrians. What would you expect me to do? Bend over for them?
I DON'T want to be emasculated.
But don't get me wrong. Zorro did a great good many things (although he was a terrorist at heart).
It's just those damn Astrians. Keep the floodgates open and we'll be swimming in asteroids.
See the documentary "Armageddon".
While we maintain our majority, let's round 'em up.
Just don't bend over. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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"I will send my terror before you, and will throw into confusion all the people..." (Exodus 23:27)
Oh crap, guess the bible supports terrorism!! |
To a certain extent you are correct, in that parts of the Bible could be used to condone violence. They are ambigious and open to interpretation, such as the quote you gave above.
However, there are a number of differences with Islam that make it an inherently more violent religion. The example of Christ somewhat tempers the fire and brimstone of the old testament, whereas the example of Muhammed (who by modern day standards would be considered a paedophile, war criminal and pirate) serves only to amplify the often violent messages of the Koran. His pronouncements to kill Jews and Christians are totally unambigious, and his legacy is one of conquest and pillage. In madressahs all over the muslim world, children are taught to emulate their prophet, and many jihadists are simply emulating the example of this man.
Moreover, 'Jihad' plays a major role in modern Islam. Violent jihad is a constant of Islamic history. Many passages of the Koran and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad are used by jihad warriors today to justify their actions and gain new recruits. No major Muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad.
These are key differences which some people are wilfully ignoring, perhaps because it undermines their belief that Islam is no more violent or intolerant than other religions, when this is patently not the case. |
Thanks bigverne for that...
and as regards Judaism.....
it is not based upon one man as are Christianity and Islam.
There was a communal experience at Sinai that, from the beginning, made Jews less likely to end up as followers of ONE man,woman, ideology. Some of you may know the phrase 2 Jews 3 opinions.....
Christianity as 'revealed' through Christ was largely founded on 'one man'. Islam is even more radical in its univision (ie.. Muhammad's)
It's not surprising that religions based upon ONE MAN'S experiences created totalitarian traditions....Buddhism, Confucianism, Christianity, Islam.
Judaism is the sum total of a people's experiences with God. It has rarely, if ever, been united under one man....Moses did a pretty good job though.....
..... Anne Frank....a nice Jewish girl killed by the Nazis.. who has been translated into a hundred tongues.... is naturally a threat to an Islamic cleric, whose daughter is seen as his property, someone to supply children to another.
Until such clerics see their own daughter's (and sons) as capable of adding to human understanding as Ann Frank has done, there probably won't be much peace. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| I hate to break it to you, but Confucianism isn't based on one man. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Describing your views as evidence of ignorance and bigotry - this is not an epithet, but rather a note of caution extended toward you.. |
Have you nothing to say about Muslim ignorance and bigotry?
And Bobster, thanks for your note of caution. But I'm not a Dutch filmmaker.
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| Your statement above about sharia law being imposed in the West is pretty near indefensible considering it is in effect today in only a small number of muslim countries. It smacks of fearmongering, even hate-mongering, and my intent was for you to ask yourself how logical a statement it was, and whether you really meant it. |
Hmmm, I guess you're right. Just like in the 1930's Nazism was in effect in only a few countries. Glad we had nothing to fear then, except fearmongers and hatemongers like FDR and Winston Churchill.
Last edited by Leslie Cheswyck on Wed May 25, 2005 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| I hate to break it to you, but Confucianism isn't based on one man. |
well-
not officially (100 schools of thought) and all that...
but it has always had a heirarchical element. But granted, of all the world's major thought/belief systems, in terms of how they manifested into human power structures....
Confucianism has been most similar to Judaism.......
unless you consider the PTA........ |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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It's not surprising that religions based upon ONE MAN'S experiences created totalitarian traditions....Buddhism, Confucianism, Christianity, Islam.
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I think you're being a bit too literal in assuming that because those religions are named after one guy, that they are based solely on the experiences of that guy. Admittedly, those religions' followers often CLAIM to be following the teachings of one guy, but that's really just self-serving propaganda on their part. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Confucianism has been most similar to Judaism.......
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I'm not quite sure I see the affinity here. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:50 am Post subject: |
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This mentions the Japanese translator's untimely death at the hands of Islamists acting on the orders of the head of state of Iran.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/18/specials/rushdie-paperback.html
Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Afghanistan (formerly) are all Islamic states. They are states where Islam permeates the state and daily politics. They are also the largest state sponsors of terrorism and Islamist propaganda in the world. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| I've always thought of Confucianism as being what would have happened if Socrates, Plato and maybe some others got turned into doctrine. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I've always thought of Confucianism as being what would have happened if Socrates, Plato and maybe some others got turned into doctrine.
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Well, for all intents and purposes, Socrates IS Plato, in that the most influential things that Socrates is alleged to have said are what is recorded in Plato's dialogues.
Plato was more-or-less turned into a doctrine, by St. Augustine. And according to Nietzsche's analysis, Christianity was basically Platonism dressed up in populist religious garb. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: ... |
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| Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Afghanistan (formerly) are all Islamic states. They are states where Islam permeates the state and daily politics. They are also the largest state sponsors of terrorism and Islamist propaganda in the world. |
Hmm...If what you say is true, only one made it to the "axis of evil"? Why is that?
Saudi Arabia? Should we invade them?
Afghanistan? Does Islam still "permeate" that country? Maybe we should re-invade them... Or send missionaries.
Les, are you seriously comparing Muslim immigrants to Nazis? |
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