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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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| How useful is a TEFL cert? |
| Great, don't leave home without one |
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25% |
[ 7 ] |
| Useful, but only bother if it means u'll get more pay |
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51% |
[ 14 ] |
| Useless, save yourself the money and don't bother |
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22% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 27 |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kimbelina wrote: |
I have a degree in EDUCATION not art or english. And did I mention it had nothing to do with teaching???
It was from the University of Waikato, nz. |
Ok, Waikato NZ. I'll put that up against a Harvard Education any day! 
No, you didn't mention that it had anything to do with teaching. It's apples to oranges -- not the education degree we're talking about here.  |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperHero wrote: |
| kimbelina wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
Otherwise, if you want a real qualification, get an education degree. |
I have an education degree and it had absolutely nothing to do with teaching. |
Derrek doesn't have one either, he's just spouting off uninformed opinions which is normal for him on this board. |
No, I don't have one. And I don't live under the illusion that a CELTA would make me much more qualified than I already am to teach here. Would it make me a better teacher? Perhaps. My mom can spend 100+ hours studying rubber stamping, and she might become a better rubber stamper. But is a 100 hour course in rubber stamping needed for her to do it or enjoy it? No.
I do, however, believe that an actual teaching degree is worth its weight in gold. Just because I don't have one doesn't mean I can't feel that way. |
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sheba
Joined: 16 May 2005
Location: Here there and everywhere!
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Actually you quoted me saying that my degree had nothing to do with teaching... My degree is just as valid as any from Harvard... you lost out at attacking my degree, so now youre attacking the university... real nice.
You were the one who was talking about getting an education degree, I was simply telling you that I have one, and as far as teaching goes, a TESOL cert helps more with teaching. There is a big difference between teaching and education. |
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OiGirl
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: Hoke-y-gun
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Goro-chan wrote: |
| Especially in Korea I don't think it is such a useful investment, but if you want to teach in an English-speaking country (England, Australia, New Zealand, not sure about the others) then you usually need some sort of qulaification to get a job. |
Is CELTA a useful "qulaification" to get a job teaching ESL in these countries? |
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SuperHero
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Superhero Hideout
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| kimbelina wrote: |
| You were the one who was talking about getting an education degree, I was simply telling you that I have one, and as far as teaching goes, a TESOL cert helps more with teaching. There is a big difference between teaching and education. |
Derrek,
get your head out of your ass and actually read what people are writing for a change. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kimbelina wrote: |
Actually you quoted me saying that my degree had nothing to do with teaching... My degree is just as valid as any from Harvard... you lost out at attacking my degree, so now youre attacking the university... real nice.
You were the one who was talking about getting an education degree, I was simply telling you that I have one, and as far as teaching goes, a TESOL cert helps more with teaching. There is a big difference between teaching and education. |
1. I was teasing you about the name of your institution, not saying that your degree was worthless. At the worst, I was teasing you about the ability of a degree from Waikato to stand up against a Harvard degree. Sure, you could get hired for a job here with that degree, but do you assume you'd get the job over a Harvard grad? Come on -- I was trying to tease you in jest.
2. Maybe NZ'ers are different, but where I come from, a degree in Education is usually followed up by, or taken in conjunction with, some sort of teaching qualification. Fine, maybe Waikato offers "Education" degrees that aren't actually teaching degrees, or have anything to do with teaching -- in my opinion, that doesn't say much for a Waikato education. Then again, I'm just going off of the few words you've posted here.
3. I'm even more curious if Waikato graduates such as yourself would be willing to distinguish the difference between your education degree and "real" accredited teaching degree when you submit resumes. Hmm... |
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sheba
Joined: 16 May 2005
Location: Here there and everywhere!
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Derrek....
1. Stop being petty.
2. Unless you know anything about Waikato university I suggest you restrain from making judgements.
3. Just because Waikato university doesnt follow YOUR ideal of a degree format, it doesnt mean they dont offer quality education.
4. Positions advertising for teaching in Korea have distinguished the difference between an education degree and a teaching degree.
Last edited by sheba on Tue May 31, 2005 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
1. I never said I was looking at "mail-order" certificates. I was looking at online schools. I see nothing wrong with seeking opinions about other options. Thank-you for putting words in my mouth.
2. I'd like some real-life examples of which schools will hire non-teaching BA + certificate holder over an MA in TESOL or a BA in Education. Which schools are doing this? I'd say the only situation in which they would choose someone with merely a certificate over someone with an MA or Education degree would be where the individual is more liked by the one hiring, for some reason. Maybe someone working there knows the person and recommends them. Or maybe the BA in Education / Masters in TESOL holder has zero experience and the CELTA holder has been teaching for years. Then maybe -- but they certainly would not be picked strictly on qualifications.
3. 90% of the teachers are here to teach conversational English -- not grammar. Koreans know grammar inside and out. What good does it do them? Again, you paid nearly $2,000 to learn some grammar and some other theories on how to make students talk. I'm glad you found it was worth it.
I, however, feel it's not.
Very few jobs in Korea ask for a CELTA. There are a few Universities that do, but as you read the ads, you'll see that BA+CELTA is often the absolute bottom of what they'll accept. Their first preference is a real education degree, or an MA in TESOL.
Based on what you've said, no one needs to bother with anything other than a BA in whatever + the CELTA. *yawn* |
When do you work?
1. If you don't do the actual teaching in a certificate course, an on-line degree is a good as a mail order degree.
2. Hanyang University and the British Council, for example.
3. Koreans knowing grammar inside and out is a myth. Some do, most don't and those that do still make grammar mistakes that you ought to explain.
In my CELTA class, we had a guy who refused to open his mind - even for the month of the course - to new ideas. He failed the course in the third week. Derreck, don't take the CELTA, I suspect you would join him in the same boat.
Derreck, I don't like fighting with you because so many people pile on and it starts to feel like bullying. That's why I'm not going to keep responding to your posts. I hope you understand that it's not because I think you're right; I just don't want to flog the same horse that others do. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| gypsyfish wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
1. I never said I was looking at "mail-order" certificates. I was looking at online schools. I see nothing wrong with seeking opinions about other options. Thank-you for putting words in my mouth.
2. I'd like some real-life examples of which schools will hire non-teaching BA + certificate holder over an MA in TESOL or a BA in Education. Which schools are doing this? I'd say the only situation in which they would choose someone with merely a certificate over someone with an MA or Education degree would be where the individual is more liked by the one hiring, for some reason. Maybe someone working there knows the person and recommends them. Or maybe the BA in Education / Masters in TESOL holder has zero experience and the CELTA holder has been teaching for years. Then maybe -- but they certainly would not be picked strictly on qualifications.
3. 90% of the teachers are here to teach conversational English -- not grammar. Koreans know grammar inside and out. What good does it do them? Again, you paid nearly $2,000 to learn some grammar and some other theories on how to make students talk. I'm glad you found it was worth it.
I, however, feel it's not.
Very few jobs in Korea ask for a CELTA. There are a few Universities that do, but as you read the ads, you'll see that BA+CELTA is often the absolute bottom of what they'll accept. Their first preference is a real education degree, or an MA in TESOL.
Based on what you've said, no one needs to bother with anything other than a BA in whatever + the CELTA. *yawn* |
When do you work?
1. If you don't do the actual teaching in a certificate course, an on-line degree is a good as a mail order degree.
2. Hanyang University and the British Council, for example.
3. Koreans knowing grammar inside and out is a myth. Some do, most don't and those that do still make grammar mistakes that you ought to explain.
In my CELTA class, we had a guy who refused to open his mind - even for the month of the course - to new ideas. He failed the course in the third week. Derreck, don't take the CELTA, I suspect you would join him in the same boat.
Derreck, I don't like fighting with you because so many people pile on and it starts to feel like bullying. That's why I'm not going to keep responding to your posts. I hope you understand that it's not because I think you're right; I just don't want to flog the same horse that others do. |
Funny, I see a lot of other people taking my side, as well.
What percentage of jobs in Korea do you need a CELTA for? They'll hire you over an MA in TESOL? Will they hire someone with any other TESOL certificate (Seems to me most of the ads don't care either way).
So far you've mentioned one school -- link please? The British Council doesn't count. Nothing like backing up your own hometown certificate.
Go ahead and "gang up" if you like. You need only look at the poll to see what people actually think. |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really know whether there is a right answer.
I think people who are planning on teaching ESL for a couple of years could invest the CELTA money in something else. As Derrek point out, it isn't really needed in most "newbie" jobs in KKKorea. Mind you it "might" open up a little better category of jobs but I think these end up being filled by people in Korea, or people with higher qualifications starting out.
On the flip-side, I think that it is in the best interest of people who plan ESL to be a "career" should invest in the certifications that are most recognized. The CELTA and the masters degree have different focus and both are important.
I'm an IT guy and this argument reminds me of all of the people who didn't want to get Microsoft certifications because they felt it wasn't a true test of ability. Oddly enough they were always the loudest one shouting down the certifications. While i agree the certs (IT) aren't particularly indicative of ability they were/are important to employers. Being an IT teacher I also noted the one's who made the most noise about certifications were the ones that were least likely (IMO) to pass them.
Of course, this is ESL and a whole different animal.
I'm back to teaching IT these days but in an EFL environment. I am currently upgrading my IT certs but I will/may also be taking the CELTA part-time starting in August. (It is offered by my employer) It is "free", so there really isn't a decision on the CELTA vs. another TESOL cert. Mind you it comes out of my training allowance, so is it "really" free.
As for me:
BA- traditional classroom (CANADA)
BSc - online (accredited school USA)
*MET (in progress) - online (CANADA)
MCT/CNI/MCSE/MCNE/CCNA/Project+/A+/NET+/ISO auditor
Network Specialist diploma (CANADA)
Network Technician diploma (CANADA)
Provincial Instructor diploma (CANADA)
*CELTA (August start, fingers crossed)
*2007 PhD assuming I can find one that interests me and that will accept my sorry ass. 
Being able to show lifelong learning makes it easier for a potential employer to feel confident in hiring you. (whether rightfully so or not) And teachers who show a commitment to life-long learning should have better opportunities than those who don't.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. |
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SuperHero
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Superhero Hideout
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
Funny, I see a lot of other people taking my side, as well. |
Derrek, I don't actually see anyone writing anything supporting you. Perhaps that's because they do not want to associated with the resident Dave's Cafe pariah and social misfit. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| SuperHero wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
Funny, I see a lot of other people taking my side, as well. |
Derrek, I don't actually see anyone writing anything supporting you. Perhaps that's because they do not want to associated with the resident Dave's Cafe pariah and social misfit. |
All you need to do is check out the poll. It's really not that difficult.
Oh, and blunder1983 posted.
C'mon.. you can do it! |
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SuperHero
Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Superhero Hideout
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
All you need to do is check out the poll. It's really not that difficult.
Oh, and blunder1983 posted. |
How many of those votes are your socks. At least two you and gollum. Any others you keep around just to skew the polls.
Wow, one other person said something that agreed with you in three pages. That's a real loud chorus you have there. Face it, you are wrong. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| SuperHero wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
All you need to do is check out the poll. It's really not that difficult.
Oh, and blunder1983 posted. |
How many of those votes are your socks. At least two you and gollum. Any others you keep around just to skew the polls.
Wow, one other person said something that agreed with you in three pages. That's a real loud chorus you have there. Face it, you are wrong. |
Oh wow... you're saying I have 17 socks on here?
Or perhaps you only meant that I have 6?
Basically, one could conclude that the posters on this thread who are "ganging up" on me, as someone put it, make up the lions share of the mere 6 people who voted, "Great -- don't leave home without one." Heck, one of those could be YOUR sock.
11 said "Useful, but don't bother unless it means higher pay."
6 said, "It's useless."
Thank-you... you're filling my evening with laughter! |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| SuperHero wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
All you need to do is check out the poll. It's really not that difficult.
Oh, and blunder1983 posted. |
How many of those votes are your socks. At least two you and gollum. Any others you keep around just to skew the polls.
Wow, one other person said something that agreed with you in three pages. That's a real loud chorus you have there. Face it, you are wrong. |
Oh, blunder1983, don't you know that saying 'TEFL certificate' on these boards is like pouring petrol onto a fire? This is nothing new. You can read a thousand similar arguments on the general discussion forums, most of which have the benefit of having people who've actually taken the course on the anti- side of things.
I'm not in Korea at the moment. Having said that, CELTA has been worth it for me, and it paid for itself in about three months. I don't care who chooses to get certified or not, but, at the same time, some of the idiocy in this thread has been making my head hurt.
So what I want to know is, who really cares? I seriously doubt that Superhero, Gypsyfish or anyone else really cares what Derrek does or thinks. It is just irking to see misinformation disseminated with such cloying midwestern smugness. At the end of the day though, it's just Derrek. Let the people who think certification is worthwhile do it. Derrek's got better things to do with his time or money than spend a couple of grand and a month of his life failing CELTA and so do a lot of other people. Here's a hint: if you actually agree with what Derrek is saying, then you should definitely NOT waste money getting certified. Just make sure you have a planned 'out' from teaching, because you could end up in your fourth contract at some Korean token native speaker job with no better ideas than 'Time for a Fake Certificate for another $100 a Month.' Depressing, no?
Also, keep in mind that if a prospective ELT employer can't tell the difference between the most recognised EFL certificates in the world and a mail order internet certificate, then DON'T WORK FOR THEM.
CELTA is useless in most Korean language schools. You don't need it. If hakwons are the extent of your ambition in this field then don't bother. So what's the problem? Derrek does what he does, and as far as I've been able to tell, teaching 'TEFL' classes at a girls' highschool in Korea is about his level. Living in Royal Palace in Pundang, he know's that he's finally made he's made it after all this time (until the next time the Ministry of Education changes its mind/until he gets too old).
To the OP - I don't know about Trinity, but CELTA spends about 2 hours on adaption of materials and creation of a syllabus in total. It's not much, and since it's near the end of the course and un-assessed not many people pay attention. One of the assumptions is that people with a certification (which is marketed as a 'pre-service' qualification) probably won't be having to deal with those problems for quite some time since under normal circumstances they would be getting support and continuing guidance from more experienced teachers/DOSs at established centres. It's a starter course. With no teaching experience, you'd be out of your depth, certificate or not. Don't blame your training, blame your employer.
Anyway, did you all know that there's a New Celta?
Also, Derrek, what's your opinion on the status of UCLES? Defacto or not?
Last edited by gang ah jee on Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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