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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| The choice for Europe really is between an inspiring new political union or a future as a bunch of cute little theme park countries. |
At least, that is what the federalist Europeans would have you believe. They tried the same pathetic scare tactics in the run up to the Dutch vote, even stooping so low to say that a rejection of the EU would be a victory for facism and a return to mass genocide. Anyway, I would hardly describe Germany, Britain, France and Italy as theme park countries. Luxembourg and Belguim maybe.
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| It reminds me of what it must have been like in the US of the 1780's before our Constitution. |
Europe now is nothing like the fledgling USA in the 1780s. The first Americans were people united by language, culture, and a shared identity as Americans. Europe is a continent with a myriad of different languages, cultures, legal systems, history and political beliefs. It simply cannot be forcibly shaped into an artificial state to which the people of it's ancient countries have no loyalty. This is precisely why the European project has had to be forced through by the political elite, often against the interests of the people.
The British want to keep their legal system. The Dutch want to keep their liberal social policies. The French want to preserve their high tax social economy. The federalists want to create a superstate that would eventually harmonise tax, education, immigration, law and order, and a whole host of other policies, ignoring regional differences and priorities. It is a profoundly undemocratic idea.
If the EU is ditched, war will not resume, the sky will not fall in, and European nations will continue to trade and get along with each other fairly well. All that will be damaged is the egos of politicians who wanted to create a legacy for themselves. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Europe now is nothing like the fledgling USA in the 1780s. The first Americans were people united by language, culture, and a shared identity as Americans. |
What have you been smoking? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| What have you been smoking? |
I see you're struggling to put together an argument yet again.
In 1790, in the USA 'the white population was 80% British (the remainder being largely German and Dutch), and 98% Protestant.(Samuel Huntingdon)
The polity that emerged after the war of independence was created by Americans almost exclusively of British origin, who based the American political and legal system on that of the British one.
And you are comparing this situation to Europe in 2005, a political entity with no dominant language, ethnicity, or indeed identity.
Now tell me, what have you been smoking? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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In 1790, in the USA 'the white population was 80% British (the remainder being largely German and Dutch), and 98% Protestant.(Samuel Huntingdon)
The polity that emerged after the war of independence was created by Americans almost exclusively of British origin, who based the American political and legal system on that of the British one.
And you are comparing this situation to Europe in 2005, a political entity with no dominant language, ethnicity, or indeed identity.
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Now I see your problem. Before I thought you had never read any book at all about the topic. It's clear you have read one book that is tangentially related.
How about reading any general high school history book? Just the first couple of chapters. The print is big. It won't take long.
Let me know when you finish and then we'll talk about it. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Here is one Neo-Con spind on it by Victor David Hanson
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The EU constitution -- and its promise of a new Europe -- supposedly offered a corrective to the Anglo-American strain of Western civilization. More government, higher taxes, richer entitlements, pacifism, statism and atheism would make a more humane and powerful new Continent of more than 400 million to outpace a retrograde United States.
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VDH is either an idiot or he is partaking in some wishful thinking. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| In 1790, in the USA 'the white population was 80% British (the remainder being largely German and Dutch), and 98% Protestant.(Samuel Huntingdon) |
I think someone is forgetting quite a lot of black people who were owned and sold and yet were still living and breathing human beings - they were considered slightly more that half-human by the original Constitution, anyway, which while giving them no votring rights or any other legal satus (just like women) nevertheless factored them in at a rate of something like 5/9 (a very wierd compromise, numerically) with regard to representation in Congress.
Still,. 5/9 seems to be more than your source acknowledges ... it would seem, according to you, that black people did not live in America at that time ... interesting. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| it would seem, according to you, that black people did not live in America at that time ... interesting. |
I was wondering when someone would bring this point up. Of course, black people made up a fairly large section of the population. However, they were not considered by the settlers to be part of American society, and they played no role in the decisions taken to create a new political entity, nor were their opinions taken into account. Hence, for the purposes of this debate, they are basically irrelevant. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| How about reading any general high school history book? Just the first couple of chapters. The print is big. It won't take long. |
Maybe when you stop your patronising you would care to address the point. Presumably, you will point out that there were Indians and Blacks also in America. However, as you will also know, they played virtually no role in the founding of the political entity that was America. All of the decisions taken to forge a new nation were made by white protestants, overwhelmingly of British origin. The Founding Fathers, were from the same ethnic and religious background. The first Presidents of the new nation were of the same ethnic background. The political elite spoke the same language and shared the same cultural values.
In contrast, the decision to create a European state will be taken by many different ethnic groups, who speak a variety of languages, and who come from a variety of different cultural backgrounds. Hence, your comparison of the two is still utter nonsense.
Now, let's see if you can actually construct an argument. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta's silence is deafening. |
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sonofthedarkstranger
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:35 am Post subject: |
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His point, I thought, was in reference to your statement of "shared identity as Americans."
There was just as much:
-localism and regionalism, i.e. identity as Virginians, New Yorkers etc., rather than as Americans.
-distrust of federalism and the Federalists
-distrust of the proposed Constitution
-distrust of the designs of the other states
as there was shared identity as Americans, pre-1789.
It was by no means a foregone conclusion that the Constitution would be ratified, and that the confederated states would be united under a strong federal govt. There was a big question mark as to whether this would happen. And it was controversial.
This is how the present EU is comparable to the US of 1789. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| localism and regionalism, i.e. identity as Virginians, New Yorkers etc., rather than as Americans. |
Right, so the difference between Virginians, New Yorkers, etc is comparable to the differences between European countries.
In one case, the people concerned are of primarily one ethnic background, and speak one language. In the other, they have neither language, ethnicity or culture in common.
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| This is how the present EU is comparable to the US of 1789. |
It's a weak comparison at best. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I find it interesting that it is the French and Dutch who are the first to put their nails in the EU coffin. After all Brussels is a French/Dutch city. If these two countries aren't willing to part with any more sovereignty, then I doubt any other country would either.
The whole (largely) French notion that the EU was needed as some sort of countrweight to hyperpower America is a friggin joke. As long as each European country is a democracy, each and every one of them will be treated with the utmost of respect by Uncle Sam. If any of them slips back into a traditional euro-disease of facism/communism we'll have to slap them back to their senses.
I was heartened to see these referendums, it showed me that there is actually hope for Europe. The people haven't totally ceded their willingness to tell unelected bureaucrats to bugger off. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
| I find it interesting that it is the French and Dutch who are the first to put their nails in the EU coffin. After all Brussels is a French/Dutch city. |
Have you ever actually BEEN to Bruxelles? |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Yes I have, and I know it's Belgian and I know it's what, Flemish and Walloon.
Flemish=Dutch and Walloon= French.
It's where the Dutch speaking world meets the French-speaking world. That was my point. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: |
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the question is, have you ever been there?
from a general website
The language frontier divides Belgium into a northern, Dutch-speaking, region and a southern, French-speaking, region. The Brussels region is officially bilingual, while the majority of its residents speaks French (see the linguistic history of Brussels in this article's history section). |
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